Auto Countersteer

RXDimA · Post by **RXDimA** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 am

The handling is so much fun, but the automatic countersteer just ruins everything. Sometimes when I corner I just start driving all wobbly, trying to countersteer the auto countersteer and it makes it really hard to hit anything moving. This is most prominent after turning and releasing the joystick, the front wheels do not point straight ahead, despite the joystick being at middle position. I tried disabling it using cheat engine but all I could do is freeze the visual representation of the wheels. Maybe there's an existing mod that disables auto countersteer?

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:37 am

there is no auto countersteer, you're fighting the inertia leaving a corner and the body roll is fighting you back, take you foot off the throttle, let your wheels grip and then drive on.

flykas · Post by **flykas** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:14 am

There is definitely auto counter steer and traction control. And yeah it would be really interesting to see how the car would handle without such helpers because the handling engine seems pretty realistic.

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:14 pm

pretty sure there isn't either of those, we have tyres that grip now as well as mixed traction surfaces, coming from the handling model in carma's 1 and 2 that's probably throwing you off.

if hes trying to slide around corners whats more than likely happening is the body roll is creating extra traction on the rear outside wheel resulting in extra grip causing a "dragging" effect resulting in the back not stepping out enough thus the impression of countersteer, it also depends on the angle hes taking as well, the more over 45° he is the more drag he'll feel.

without manual transmission its difficult to control the amount of torque generated to the drive wheels so you cant control the traction slip point as you'd like, thankfully carma's wheelspin function is great for just dumping all traction on cue making balancing high speed cornering easy and fun.

RXDimA · Post by **RXDimA** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:03 pm

I may have explained myself poorly (English is my third language). The issue I have is that the ingame steering wheel (and car's tires) is not always in sync with the joystick position. When I lose control of cars in Dirt Rally, Gran Turismo 6, Live for Speed, and GTR Evo, if my joystick is right in the middle, so is the steering wheel and the wheels, no matter what is happening with the car. In Carma MD, sometimes after cornering the steering wheel goes the other way despite the joystick being right in the middle (doesn't happen if it's not in the middle), and after I finish countersteering that deviation, the game thinks I'm cornering again and the car goes where I did not intend to go, making me wobble. It's pretty annoying but I'm starting to get used to it.

Edit: Ingame steering wheel, when using 1st person cam.

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:50 pm

ah right, carmageddon doesn't natively support steering wheels.

RXDimA · Post by **RXDimA** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Gunsmith wrote:ah right, carmageddon doesn't natively support steering wheels.

Should've added that I play with a DS3 joystick.

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:26 am

'SetSteerGyroscope()': simply keeps the wheels center to the car when no steering input is entered, it doesnt actively counter oversteer and stabilitygrip change sounds like its simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed.

flykas · Post by **flykas** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:48 am

"ts simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed." so this is basically traction control and gyro acts somewhat as autocountersteer I think, well all I know that without these helpers the car would driver very differently and it would be more difficult to control with gamepad, but I'd prefer lower level of helpers.

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:59 am

im thinking of it more from a physics engine point of view, not a car assist

'80s Time Warp · Post by **'80s Time Warp** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm

Gunsmith wrote:'SetSteerGyroscope()': simply keeps the wheels center to the car when no steering input is entered, it doesnt actively counter oversteer

Not exclusively. With the gyroscope disabled, the wheels still auto center when there is zero input, I can provide video of this if you would like. With or without the gyroscope, after light turning, the wheels seemingly appear to counter steer ever so slightly, even if the angle is only slight and there is no discernible change to vehicle direction.

and stabilitygrip change sounds like its simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed.

Not really, a slow down in wheel speed that would result from the tires biting/finding traction/grip is not a manifestation of the tires being directly given extra grip above the amount of grip generated by that tire. It is worth noting, that the 'StabilityGripChange()' changes grip, and doesn't affect traction, so theoretically it has minimal or even zero affect on a car that is burning out, instead it affects turning & sliding only.

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:53 pm

'80s Time Warp wrote:
Gunsmith wrote:'SetSteerGyroscope()': simply keeps the wheels center to the car when no steering input is entered, it doesnt actively counter oversteer

Not exclusively. With the gyroscope disabled, the wheels still auto center when there is zero input, I can provide video of this if you would like. With or without the gyroscope, after light turning, the wheels seemingly appear to counter steer ever so slightly, even if the angle is only slight and there is no discernible change to vehicle direction.

Pretty sure that's related to the Castor settings

car:SetCastorSpeed1(0)
car:SetCastorSpeed2(1)
car:SetCastorSpeedVel(100)

For those who aren't aware, Castor is the effect of wheels straightening out in the direction of motion due to the pivot point being ahead of the contact patch on the ground. An easy to understand example of this is shopping trolleys, when you push them the castor wheels always point in the direction of motion. That's what is being simulated here. It's not counter steering assistance trying to straighten the car out by turning into a skid, it's just changing the wheel direction based on physically correct wheel movement.

The Gyroscope settings, on the other hand, pretty much does the opposite by simulating Gyroscopic motion, where a wheel spinning around one access will resist changes in motion along a different axis. It stops the wheel turning with the car. Again, nothing to do with counter steering, just physics.

and stabilitygrip change sounds like its simulating the grip increase of spinning wheels slowing to match relative roadspeed.

Not really, a slow down in wheel speed that would result from the tires biting/finding traction/grip is not a manifestation of the tires being directly given extra grip above the amount of grip generated by that tire. It is worth noting, that the 'StabilityGripChange()' changes grip, and doesn't affect traction, so theoretically it has minimal or even zero affect on a car that is burning out, instead it affects turning & sliding only.

I'm pretty sure the StabilityGripChange is meant to simulate the physics of tyre's physical grip increasing at higher speeds due to the increased pressure. If anyone's watched racing which involves different tyre choices, such as F1, they will be aware of the fact the grip levels in tyres change between a standing start and full speed. I don't think it is applied per wheel when losing traction, but rather applied per tyre based on the forces being applied to them. Subtle but distinct difference. As Mike mentioned above, it's changing the actual grip level of the tyres, it's not Traction Control. Traction Control would be detecting the loss of traction to each individual wheel and adjusting the power output to each of them separately to regain traction. Again, it's attempting to simulate physical properties of car under motion, it's not a driving assist.

As far as I'm aware the game does not use traction control on any of the cars. There are actually two car settings relating to traction control mentioned in the game's exe: TractionControlFade and TractionControlTime, however they don't seem to be used at all, they're not used in any vehicle config, and I don't even know if they actually do anything. The game seems to be designed with no driving assists in use at all, any things which might be assumed to be driving assists are actually just the result of the highly accurate physics simulation.

'80s Time Warp · Post by **'80s Time Warp** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:34 pm

There are several factors in game, that can seem to mimick the effects of automatic counter-steering. Anything in Yellow is a comment from the games .exe. These values are all defined uniquely within the 'setup.lol' for each vehicle.

Firstly, there is 'SetSteerCentreMultiplier()':

On every official car I've looked at, this has been set to two. As such, when there is no steering input, it will double the steering speed for straightening the wheels up. It is not unreasonable to suggest that to some users, this could contribute towards the impression of the vehicle automatically steering into a slide to some extent. As when there is no steering input, the wheels move faster towards an angle of zero, suggesting that there could be some other input going on.

An interesting, but generally useless note; apparently if a value of zero is used for the 'SetSteerCentreMultiplier()', then the wheels will centre immediately.

Secondly, there is 'SetSteerGyroscope()':

This "Tends to make the front wheels preserve their world space alignment. This helps make the car stable." In other words, when a car gets sideways, this will generally get the front wheels to maintain their angle relative to the world. This will create the impression of automatic counter-steering as the wheels will tend to stay pointing in the same direction relative to the world, even if the rest of the vehicle has changed direction. With the gyroscope disabled, the wheels tend to maintain their angle relative to the car, or just straighten up. Disabled, this potentially makes the car more unstable as the user will be responsible for all counter steering.

EDIT: Irrelevant, the above keeps the steering stable.

Lastly, despite what most of us have believed in the past, the game does feature a crude form of stability/traction/grip control. Defined by:

'SetStabilityGripChange()' "Amount grip can be adjusted to stabilise car"

'SetStabilityThreshold()' "Adjust point that stability control kicks in 0.0=immediately, 1.0 = quit late,"

If the vehicle breaks traction/grip, after a period of time defined by the Threshold value (0.5 on the official cars), the game will adjust the grip (g's) of the wheels to stabilize the car (0.4 on the official cars). Whether this grip adjustment applies per wheel, or per axle, I do not know. On all of my future releases, I have disabled the stability control.

If I have misinterpreted any of the above, then apologies for any misinformation.

'80s Time Warp · Post by **'80s Time Warp** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:58 pm

The Gyroscope settings, on the other hand, pretty much does the opposite by simulating Gyroscopic motion, where a wheel spinning around one access will resist changes in motion along a different axis. It stops the wheel turning with the car. Again, nothing to do with counter steering, just physics.

'Hits himself around the back of the head' - How could I 'expletive' forget that the basic point of a gyroscope was to to maintain angular velocity & momentum against external forces? In this instance keeping the steering stable against whatever other forces are acting upon the car.

I'm pretty sure the StabilityGripChange is meant to simulate the physics of tyre's physical grip increasing at higher speeds due to the increased pressure. If anyone's watched racing which involves different tyre choices, such as F1, they will be aware of the fact the grip levels in tyres change between a standing start and full speed. I don't think it is applied per wheel when losing traction, but rather applied per tyre based on the forces being applied to them. Subtle but distinct difference. As Mike mentioned above, it's changing the actual grip level of the tyres, it's not Traction Control. Traction Control would be detecting the loss of traction to each individual wheel and adjusting the power output to each of them separately to regain traction. Again, it's attempting to simulate physical properties of car under motion, it's not a driving assist.

A high StabilityGripChange factor does certainly keep the car in check at speed, but I was under the impression it added grip to the tires in any condition where there is insufficient grip. I could be wrong, but I did find it takes considerably more space to get a car to do doughnuts with a very high StabilityGripChange factor. At first, the car doesn't spin suggesting the extra grip (2g's for testing purposes) is at play then, granted this isn't a particularly scientific test.

Interestingly, I would of thought the appropriate 'SetFrontDownforce()' & 'SetRearDownforce()' values would be used to generate the extra grip for better cornering at speed. I might have to look into that further.

I really have got this topic onto a bit of a tangent, albeit a fairly relevant subject. Either way, I'll stand by my initial statement with a bit of an addition:

"There are several factors in game, that can seem to mimick the effects of automatic counter-steering." - But it doesn't mean that there is an active automatic counter-steering mechanism. Granted at times, to the unsuspecting eye, it can look like there is.

Gunsmith · Post by **Gunsmith** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:10 pm

'80s Time Warp wrote: lots of interesting words with video experimentation.

some good posts and some interesting reading, tbh even back when I was working at codemasters I could never fully explain how i used to destroy everyone in the office much to the annoyance of our chief handling designer.

flykas · Post by **flykas** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:55 am

Trent wrote:The game seems to be designed with no driving assists in use at all, any things which might be assumed to be driving assists are actually just the result of the highly accurate physics simulation.

Okay, but why then cars don't drive realistically ? Try to drive in any racing sim or at least in Beam ng without assists and there is a huge difference. I mean these cars are supposed to be powerful, but you can't even do a burnout without using wheelspin button.

Or are you saying that they are just created and set up like that and it is possible to create accurate physics for a vehicle. ?

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