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Wasted in one or two hits

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JeReMiZ
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Wasted in one or two hits

Post by JeReMiZ »

Hello,

First and foremost, I'm French and I will try to do my best to explain my issue.

I have already submitted a ticket about what I consider an issue, and I got a reply, which is nice, that the team will look into it.

But it is quite hard to describe by just word what the problem is, I want to illustrate it so Stainless can adress it better and if a fix already exist or if I do wrong somewhere, they can point me out where and why.

So, I tested with the threes difficulties Easy, medium and hard: same results.

-APO: from stock to maximum armour (read it with crysis voice in your head)

-Vehicles used for the test: the Eagle, the Bear, Tropikill.

Eagle for it's all around vehicle, Bear and Tropikill for a medium-heavy vehicles AGAINST light-weight vehicles like Kutter or Snaky Bastard.

-Freeplay and carreer, very first level, and Bleak City industrial area.

-> I always get the same results, as of getting WASTED in one, or two hits by a small vehicle while I drive a bigger, tougher vehicle, as listed above.

Where is the fun if I have to repair fully each time I try to crash into an opponent?

Let's look at this situation:

FULLY REPAIRED, GAINING SPEED, Snaky Bastard in target:


Snaky Bastard APPROCHING DANGEROUSLY:


IMMINENT COLLISION, MAX SPEED GAINED:


FIRST FRAME OF THE COLLISION:


Snaky Bastard BENDS MY CAR, GOING FROM GREEN HEALTH TO RED:


MORE BENT, EXPLOSION AND...


... WASTED!


Ok, I'm playing in Easy, I should cranck up the armour, offensive and power...same results. Before that I used The Bear against the Countslash, same results.

I used to play a lot of Carmageddon and Carmageddon 2, and I'm playing C:R since the alpha, counting 180+ hours and finished two times the career mode, by deleting my savegame.

Something is wrong, but I can't specifically point where it is.

I should be able to crash into the opponent without getting wasted SO F*CKING EASILY. I would understand if it were the APC or if I drive Autoscum against the PLOW, but come on, this?

I made this thread to gather information about this, because I really love this game, and wish to enjoy it mooooore.
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Cynatix
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Post by Cynatix »

Well, maybe you should not suck....

Just kidding. In all seriousness, this is probably from the redo of the damage system. I sometimes have the same problems. However, I think this may be Stainless wanting the games to be more Carmageddon-ey. Before the final update that was before the final release, it was a little too easy. Then, it got harder with the updates afterwards. I think this is either; 1. Stainless just wanting the main career to be more difficult, or, 2. just a mess-up with the re-written damage.

Plus, I love difficulty of this scale in gaming, personally.
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Privata
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Post by Privata »

Cynatix wrote:Well, maybe you should not suck....

Just kidding. In all seriousness, this is probably from the redo of the damage system. I sometimes have the same problems. However, I think this may be Stainless wanting the games to be more Carmageddon-ey. Before the final update that was before the final release, it was a little too easy. Then, it got harder with the updates afterwards. I think this is either; 1. Stainless just wanting the main career to be more difficult, or, 2. just a mess-up with the re-written damage.


Plus, I love difficulty of this scale in gaming, personally.


To be honest we used to get one hit killed by someone for no reason and the same for us on someone else , it happens much less today
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KevinKC
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Post by KevinKC »

Well French Rigor, that is a very convincing exposé.

I always had the feeling when I played carma 1 that whenever you'd do a head-on collision, your potential damages were erased if you were the "winning" car. Like, if you were going the fastest or had a really tough vehicule. The weaker your car was, the faster you had to go to avoid taking damages. I always liked that idea because it allowed you to look for crazy head-on collisions without worrying about getting destroyed as the faster you went the least chances there was that your car would be damaged.

I have the feeling that this doesn't work like this in Carmageddon Reincarnation anymore. Not only do head-ons are rarely rewarding in the game (most of the time you get wrecked, and when you don't you earn less money than the cost of the repairs) but opponents very rarely go for them. I think it comes from the desire of the developpers to make the single player mode resemble mutli-player. I think it is a downer. I loved head-ons in C1 even though last time I played the game I realised a race could really become a long and repetitive addition of head-ons, I think that their absence from Carmageddon Reincarnation is too noticeable. They should be less punished and opponents should engage into them a bit more often. (without getting wrecked as soon as they go for them which is another problem).

Also, it is impossible to do a U-turn to face an opponent and go for a head-on in C : R, you get f**ked each time you try. If you know Ed 101 is following you and feel like trying a U-turn and head-on him, well don't try.

Head-ons (where do you put the "s" dammit) used to give the game a "dual" aspect, an epicness. Two iconic characters facing each other. There was something strongly symbolic going on. A romantic and humanist: "assert yourself in front of others whoever you are." Now it's more practical and materialist (and liberal capitalist), you look for side collisions, weapons, or opportunities to crush your opponents against the wall, you have to adopt a less gratifying, less crazy more cowardly opportunist attitude. Some more fearless head-ons would recenter the game on the pilots' craziness. This resemble multiplayer more, yes, but the "atmospheric," the "narrative" part of the game disappears a bit.
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Psyrgery
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Post by Psyrgery »

After the update the APO system got kind of messed up. And I mean REALLY messed up.

The player car is totally underpowered now, I was driving the Police Squad APC with a 4/4/4 APO upgrade in City A, Tier 1 (the first race in the career)

I crashed into the barriers on the corner that leads to stadium, just before the bridge (you know, there is a long straight lime before said barrier)

Well, the Wolksverker crashed into me at full speed. He got wasted BUT my damage indicator was flashing yellow/red as in, rub anything badly and you'll explode.

The wolksverker.

Against the APC.

Upgraded to 4/4/4.

In frraking tier 1 of the career!!!!

There is something wrong with the damage balance, as I said to TwistedMind yesterday, Carmageddon Reincarnation is now Carmageddon Infrustration to me lolo lol
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JeReMiZ
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Post by JeReMiZ »

Ok after further investigations, I found something interesting:

I modified the file game_balancing.lol located in .../ZAD/Scripts/Data_Core/Content using LOLDecoder from Trent, then opened the original scripts.zad with winrar and put my modified game_balancing.lol where it belongs.

I changed this part of the file:

AI_APO = {

easy = {armour = 0.85, offensive = 0.8},

medium = {armour =1, offensive = 0.9},

hard = {armour = 1.2, offensive = 1}
I play in Medium difficulty, so I only changed the medium line to ridiculous value, to see if there is a change, like that:

AI_APO = {

easy = {armour = 0.85, offensive = 0.8},

medium = {armour =0.1, offensive = 0.1},

hard = {armour = 1.2, offensive = 1}

And what a change!

I used the Snaky Bastard vehicle on the very first level, one time with stock APO, the other time with full Armour and Offensive. The result: I'm able to waste every opponent, even the Plow, by simply touching them softly.

--> So the problem is a balancing problem, and the APO seems to NOT WORK as intended. I tested this quicly, but to me, it's like AI APO is overriding the PLAYER APO. You can put armour and offensive to the max, the AI will not be affected. But you, you will have a hard time inflicting damage and your bodywork will be made of thin paper glass.
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Skizzo321
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Post by Skizzo321 »

That's a very interesting thing you've discovered Rigor.

Like I said in the Steam Forums, the APO doesn't seem to have any affect in SP against the AI.
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JeReMiZ
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Post by JeReMiZ »

Settings values for armour to 0.8 and offensive to 0.2 for medium difficulty makes the game more enjoyable for me.

Using stock APO, on first level with the Hawk, I was able to get hit without being wasted every single hit, and was able to crash into opponent without getting too much damage.

The feeling I got was much like C1, anyone interested should try these values. Just put AI APO offensive to 0.2, and see the result.

Of course doing these modifications will disable achievements, etc...at least as long as you play with modified files.
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Psyrgery
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Post by Psyrgery »

Thanks for the heads up Rigor, will give it a try layer
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'80s Time Warp
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Post by '80s Time Warp »

After the update the APO system got kind of messed up. And I mean REALLY messed up.

The player car is totally underpowered now, I was driving the Police Squad APC with a 4/4/4 APO upgrade in City A, Tier 1 (the first race in the career)


I crashed into the barriers on the corner that leads to stadium, just before the bridge (you know, there is a long straight lime before said barrier)


Well, the Wolksverker crashed into me at full speed. He got wasted BUT my damage indicator was flashing yellow/red as in, rub anything badly and you'll explode.


The wolksverker.


Against the APC.


Upgraded to 4/4/4.


In frraking tier 1 of the career!!!!


There is something wrong with the damage balance, as I said to TwistedMind yesterday, Carmageddon Reincarnation is now Carmageddon Infrustration to me lolo lol

Unless I have mis-read the patch notes - opponent APO in the career is now set to match the player, rather than what was initially unlocked at each node in the career, so the Volkswerkers APO was also upgraded to 4/4/4 in that instance. If you select base APO, then opponents should match that.
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Errol
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Post by Errol »

Rigor wrote:
AI_APO = {
easy = {armour = 0.85, offensive = 0.8},
medium = {armour =0.1, offensive = 0.1},
hard = {armour = 1.2, offensive = 1}
}


And what a change!


I used the Snaky Bastard vehicle on the very first level, one time with stock APO, the other time with full Armour and Offensive. The result: I'm able to waste every opponent, even the Plow, by simply touching them softly.


--> So the problem is a balancing problem, and the APO seems to NOT WORK as intended. I tested this quicly, but to me, it's like AI APO is overriding the PLAYER APO. You can put armour and offensive to the max, the AI will not be affected. But you, you will have a hard time inflicting damage and your bodywork will be made of thin paper glass.

How does things working properly prove they're not working as intended?

In your test you've set the AI armour to be 0.1 (or 10%) of your armour and their offensive (or damage dealing capabilities) to also be 10% of yours.
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Siron
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Post by Siron »

I just reply to this post to tell that, at the point of the career when I have arrived, I am also frustrated to see how it is easy to be crushed and how it is difficult to hit beneficially the others (without losing more money from the reparation). It is just not possible for me to finished an arena round with positive money if I do not flee to opponent. It even seems that I am sometime crushed in series ... (before having time to repair)

And by the way, what is the point of the APO if the AI car gain automatically the same level ?
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KevinKC
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Post by KevinKC »

I've just finished the game for the fourth time and although I enjoyed it, it's good, I think there are serious problems with the gameplay which prevent it from being truly great. I've experienced the same thing as Siron and slowly came to play the game differently.

- You die too easily in classic carma (it's not a problem in the other challenges and I think it might be a good idea to make it "official" that the cars are a lot more fragile in stampede, peds and death race, so that it can also be acknowledged that their true incarnations are to be found in classic carma). So, you die too easily in classic carma. it's too punishing and it has a huge impact on how we play the game. Why does the player can be "one shot" in the first place ? Or adversaries ? The fact that you can be destroyed in one hit ruins many aspects of the game. I think the cars should have some sort of (invisble) armors which need a first strong crash to be removed, and which do not allow this crash to wreck the car.

- The AI has several problems. no head-on or just by chance, annoyingly stubborn and skilled, move and react too fast, for example, when you manage to have your opponent hit a wall, it would be cool if he didn't crash into you three seconds later before you even manage to turn around. It sometimes gives a "teleport" feel which is exasperating. The rhythm/haste of the pilots' reactions makes you aware of their inhumanity, of the fact that they are just bots. Make them stunned some seconds (like 1,5s) and slow and uncertain so that we can take advantage of these situation the same way they do with us. And let the cops' attention be attracted by your opponents even if they can only inflict little damages to them, like 10% of what they should. First you could breath and second you could "defend" an opponent.

- The damage system. Cars are to quick to be killed with powerups, too strong when you're trying to kill them with collisions, or it costs you too much. They lose too many parts, too easily. Wheels are too easy to be lost. You spend half the time pushing the repair key to get your wheels back. It should take more hit to remove a wheel, so that when an opponent loses one it feels like an event.

- The impression of speed. It's very rare that you get the feeling that you are driving fast and that with that momentum you're going to destroy anyone who's on your path. Collisions are most of the time just little bumps. And if the opponent is against a wall, bing it explodes. The whole damage system would feel more coherent if the cars were going faster.

- Explosion shouldn't be systematic. They're great but C1 black smoke and oil is cool too. Explosions would get some of their emotional impact back if they weren't systematic. As it is, they're an unimpressive aesthetic formality.

- The rewards from running over peds are always 200 credits (and if there is a style bonus, it's not added so you cannot exactly see)

- Powerups are too numerous, the interface was ok for C2, now it is slightly limited. Shortcuts would be useful for powerups that you don't give a shit about in general but which are actually useful in precise situations (kangaroo, spinnerton).

- Powerups are too important. They've become the core of the game. Opponents are too tough to kill with collisions, too dangerous to be approached, and collisions cost you too much money, so yeah, powerups. Now, when you die in Max Payne, do you reappear empty handed ? No. if you get wrecked in carmageddon and don't want to pay a fortune just to see the same opponent, who is most likely still around, wreck you again while you're repairing, you have to lose your powerups, which means that, unless you wanna take a swing at destroying an opponent without any powerups, you just now have to look for another weapon somewhere. It's not exactly that it's boring, it's just that regularly your actions just lose their point in the middle of their course. Powerups shouldn't be that important anyway. The player shouldn't depend on them. Searching for weapons is 70% of the time of the fight against an opponent. The confrontation needs to be more important.

- Recovery is also a problem now because so many situations can previsibly transform into you being wrecked or seriously damaged that pushing the recovery button is often very tempting.

The game is still fun but it often is frustrating in a disagreeable way. When you get wrecked four or five times in classic carma it does not feel logical to carry on. You can go fetch several opponent repulsifiers and anvil launchers and suddenly that APC becomes a bank but all of this feels cheap, all the more so as you become a behemoth with these weapons when you were a rabbit five minutes earlier. Anyway. I've finished the game four times. I love it, I just wish some problems would disappear. Mainly, I wish fighting with an opponent could be as epic as in C1. I had some cool fights in CR with the plow or the subpressor, opponents that you can ram into several times or that can resist a mortar or repulsification. Just like with C2, the game becomes more interesting in its third part, when your car is stronger and the opponents too.
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JeReMiZ
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Post by JeReMiZ »

I couldn't agree more Kevinkc! Hope Stainless reads this topic :)
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KevinKC
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Post by KevinKC »

He he thank you. I really hesitated to write all that because I didn't want to be too harsh, and unproductively negative. Even more so now that they have accomplished something impressive with the last update.

I think there are very good things in the game. I enjoy unlocking new chapters. The countdown, the noise, the red circle, the announcement of new opponents, levels, type of race... The cars destruction is visually great. The slicing of peds with the eagle's blade. The cars themselves are very cool and have much character. The architecture of the levels has some really nice stuff going on. The car handling could be a bit better but is still entertaining. A good hit is still very rewarding, and taking revenge over some particularly ennoying opponent too, or stealing points etc...

I wish there were more things to unlock with money as I said in another post. Like when they unleash King Merc and Hammerhead, it would be great if another new opponent was unlockable on its own but only with the money surplus you earn when redoing older races or when you unlock a chapter. I think the incentive to roam around and pick up barrels is high and that, it is good. Although they are very easily found, I like upgrade tokens too, because you need so many of them it invites you to explore at random times. And I like the fact that their presence is so random (I think it has to do with whether your car is fully upgraded or not) because it gives a certain flavour to random races.

Oh, and I think, it could be cool if the "steal worthy" cars had a resistence bonus, because as you know they're stillworthy, you are more motivated and the fight becomes more epic.

I think on the whole, "epicness" should be adressed. The feeling that something memorable is happening in the race. It cannot happen when you get rid of opponents by pushing ctrl once. And it cannot happen when they wreck you in one hit and your car looks like a sheet of paper, or when you brush the bodywork of an adversary who hits a wall and is more damaged than if you had crashed into him, or worst is wrecked by mistake. Destroying opponents should need a bit more tenacity to be memorable.

Anyway. I'm going back to it. Yeaaaah !
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Siron
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Post by Siron »

KevinKC, I do agree to what you write too. Especially with the recovery which is like cheating for me but end to be very profitable. Consequently to what you tell, I indeed try to play as you do, by focusing on the powerup (I must admit it is a jungle for me), and it is true it really helps a lot to use them. But I do prefer damage by collision and feel sad about their handling. Just seeing that hitting a car at full speed sometime has just a small effect, whereas some other time small speed collision are more rewarding ... And at the end, because the opponent is always faster than me to react, finish crushed by it slowly pushing me to a wall ....

And indeed, I am very happy with the last update, and if I am almost speaking about the frustrating aspect, lets not forget the other aspects of the game which are enjoyable.
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Psyrgery
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Post by Psyrgery »

So, as Rigor suggested, I've been fiddling with the values in the damage_balance.lol trying to improve the offense/armour rates and make the game a little "fairer". I haven't finished yet, but so far it looks good to me, the balance now resembles Carma1 in terms of damage taken/damage dealt when your car is not upgraded but it gets easier on your side as you upgrade your car (something I am trying to fix by further tweaking)

I've uploaded the file to my Dropbox folder, someone would like to give it a look? Just place it in the ZAD folder (WARNING It will disable multiplayer)

NOTE: ONLY WORKS IN MEDIUM DIFFICULTY!

NOTE2: Please try to use it in career mode with non-upgraded cars and let me know what you think!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22230568/zzz_scripts.zad
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KevinKC
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Post by KevinKC »

Ok I've tested your file on the first level with the eagle and man it was some shock.

It makes the game feel a lot more serious and coherent... and mature... and substantial.

I've also tried with one armor on the classic carma chapter 2.

I was already a bit too invincible, but it was good for a change.

In two races your tweaking allowed me to experience things that I saw very rarely with the normal configuration of the game:

- Snaky bastard rammed into me several times and the eagle was deformed according to the hits. I could witness this because I wasn't wrecked nor needed to repair.

- I was able to admire the eagle, because it didn't lose its bonnet every second.

- More important, because I wasn't scared shitless to be wrecked at every collision, I could go for more of them. In the real game, if you miss and hit a wall it can be very punishing so you think twice before trying to hit an opponent when it's not obvious that you're gonna make it.

- I had the pleasure to find Rusk stuck on its roof. I pushed him against a wall and rammed into him like five times, earning about 50s each times, and I never wrecked him ! He recovered and I finished him with a "have a banana ray" five minutes later. And it didn't feel cheap because I had had a good fight with him.

- I repulsified Snaky Bastard straight into a wall and he wasn't wrecked. I pushed him in a wall and he still wasn't wrecked.

- I wrecked him thanks to Rusk who was pushing me and gave me more momentum !

- Because with your config most of the hits give fives seconds (and that's where the "danger" comes from) I had to go and run over some pedestrians to earn some time and was happy to find ped tosser.

I am convinced that cars should be a lot more resistent in Classic Carma. Only problem, the AI should be changed a little bit so that it is easier to make bigger collisions (head-ons). And a little more speed would make the crashes more engaging. (making the explosions un-systematic would be good too).

Why isn't there a "modern gameplay" or "Carma 1 style" option when you start a new career ?
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GTMoraes
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Post by GTMoraes »

So I downloaded the Psyrgery mod and installed it.

Oh mama, that's how I remember Carmageddon. Let's wreak havoc!!!

Went in one, two, three Career races. Was amazed by it, had lots of fun, started playing Carma again because things were playable once again (Previously, my Pitbull was getting killed or immobilized by being rear-ended by any other car)

When I was done with it, I was about to close the game, and it said to me that it wasn't going to save my progress. Closed the game, reopened and there it was, all my progress rewinded. Darnit.

Is there anyway to play Career with mods AND save progress? CarMODgeddon doesn't allow me to play on Career (nor on Multiplayer, strangely enough)
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