[BACKERS] Kickstarter Rewards Shipment

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argan
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Post by argan »

Ah well, i never expect to see anything now. I dont really care anymore beyond keeping my fingers crossed that stainless goes out of business.
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Fireman
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Post by Fireman »

argan wrote:Ah well, i never expect to see anything now. I dont really care anymore beyond keeping my fingers crossed that stainless goes out of business.
The old Kickstarter terms apply as far as I know, so you might be able to get your money back. Not sure. I haven't tried (yet).
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yuske
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Post by yuske »

Fireman wrote:The old Kickstarter terms apply as far as I know, so you might be able to get your money back. Not sure. I haven't tried (yet).

Just so you remember...

Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.
This from the old terms - https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012?ref=faq-basics_creatorproblems

From me... I still hope. I still like Stainless, I do feel disappointed, but I have hope... it's all I can have, right?
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Fireman
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Post by Fireman »

yuske wrote:
Fireman wrote:The old Kickstarter terms apply as far as I know, so you might be able to get your money back. Not sure. I haven't tried (yet).


Just so you remember...


Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.

Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.


This from the old terms - https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012?ref=faq-basics_creatorproblems


From me... I still hope. I still like Stainless, I do feel disappointed, but I have hope... it's all I can have, right?

Yeah that's the part I ment.

I'm still hopin' too :P
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nemmi69
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Post by nemmi69 »

Tried using the feedback to see if I could get a response but nadda. Very disappointed in them these days. Haven't even seen a bulletin from them in awhile.
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Suicide Clyde
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Post by Suicide Clyde »

I did ask for my money back, there was no reply from stainless and kickstarter said they cant help. I wonder if there is a way to do a class action lawsuit on them in jolly old england since weve been pretty much treated as a bunch of cunts.
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v85rawdeal
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Post by v85rawdeal »

So, no new updates then?
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Post by Torick »

Celebrating 5 years since the end of Kickstarter Carmageddon campaign and the beginning of the Great Anticipation.
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RagingR2
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Post by RagingR2 »

Torick wrote:Celebrating 5 years since the end of Kickstarter Carmageddon campaing and the beginning of the Great Anticipation.
Amen.

It's very sad, but frankly I have given up hope that we'll ever recieve anything now.

A big part of that is the lack of communication from Stainless; it's a bad bad sign if you ask me.

Also; I have pretty much finished the single player campaign of 'Max Damage' by now, so frankly I have stopped caring.

By the time we recieve anything, if and when we recieve anything, it'll be like, "Yay!! -- two T-shirts for a game I finished like 3 years ago!"

When the heck am I ever gonna wear those?

It would have been fun wearing them in the period leading up to the release of the game (by which I mean "Reincarnation").

Right now, send them straight to poor people in Africa for all I care, there's someone who has more use for those T-shirts than me, at this point.

As for the money I spent: I'll try to forget it to get over the anger.

I wanna get on with my life. I know that sounds dramatic, but we're not talking about the kind of money that I spend on a daily basis...

However I am done being frustrated about it at this point, so I am just gonna try my best to not think about it ever again.

In a way that's gonna be hard though, because what it will be, is an everlasting reminder to never spend big ammounts of money on a game through "Crowdfunding", like ever again.

From now on my money is gonna go to finished games AND merchandise. First show me the goods, and then I'll spend a normal market value ammount of money on your game and any T-shirts. Without an ETA of multiple years.

That's a sad conclusion for small (indy) game developers. But that's the unfortunate effect of a crowdfunding mess like this.
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yuske
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Post by yuske »

RagingR2 wrote:
Torick wrote:Celebrating 5 years since the end of Kickstarter Carmageddon campaing and the beginning of the Great Anticipation.


Amen.


It's very sad, but frankly I have given up hope that we'll ever recieve anything now.

A big part of that is the lack of communication from Stainless; it's a bad bad sign if you ask me.


By the time we recieve anything, if and when we recieve anything, it'll be like, "Yay!! -- two T-shirts for a game I finished like 3 years ago!"

When the heck am I ever gonna wear those?


It would have been fun wearing them in the period leading up to the release of the game (by which I mean "Reincarnation").

Right now, send them straight to poor people in Africa for all I care, there's someone who has more use for those T-shirts than me, at this point.


As for the money I spent: I'll try to forget it to get over the anger.

I wanna get on with my life. I know that sounds dramatic, but we're not talking about the kind of money that I spend on a daily basis...

I wanna upvote, like, fave and share this so hard.

The only part I disagree is about leaving the crowdfunding scene. I've had more than my share of great fundings, like Halcyon 6, Orion Trail, Exploding Kittens, TerraTech, Basement, Timespinner, Children of Morta (the last trhee still both in dev) - but I'm never again forking US$350 (specially when it means almost R$1k at the time, more now) for goodies.

Carma:R was the first time I had the funds to do so, but will also be the last I crowdfund no matter if I can later. I don't mind giving up 10-15 bucks for a game that can just flop - but that kinda cash for promised awesome physical goodies... never again.
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Post by CzechDeath »

Somehow you keep forgetting that money you've spend were primarely for the developement. While the frustration from not recieving the reward goods is still valid, dont make it sound like you have purchased bunch of t-shirts for 400$ and stainless did not deliver, while they delivered you one and a half game, basically ... I'm not saying the situation is ideal by any streach. but lets be reasonable over here...

For example. Eversince I've seen how challenging the KS rewards actually are for the staff of any company, I just dont want any physical rewards from any project out there that I since supported vie KS.

If anything this is good learning experience. Pick your projects and be prepared that they can fail, or the reward system can fail. If you are not prepared for that dont support projects with your money...
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Post by CitizenSwift »

I think a "Sorry guys, this ain't gonna happen." would go down better than the silence. It's sad that the backers that stumped up the most cash are the ones that got none of the rewards. Even the $100 backers got something.
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RagingR2
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Post by RagingR2 »

CzechDeath wrote:Somehow you keep forgetting that money you've spend were primarely for the developement.
Part true... I mean it would be even worse if the game didn't come out. But the money was certainly also for the physical goodies, or we could have all chosen a much lower, cheaper tear.

CzechDeath wrote:while they delivered you one and a half game, basically ...

Don't get me wrong, I like the game very much. I think "one and a half game" is being quite generous by the way; I mean it's basicly the same game with some minor updates and a slightly different menu, or am I missing something?

That was not my main point in this thread however, so please don't let it sound that way. I mean we got a perfectly fun game to play.

but lets be reasonable over here... For example. Eversince I've seen how challenging the KS rewards actually are for the staff of any company, I just dont want any physical rewards from any project out there that I since supported vie KS. If anything this is good learning experience. Pick your projects and be prepared that they can fail, or the reward system can fail. If you are not prepared for that dont support projects with your money...
I don't think I'm being unreasonable, and I don't think what you said is entirely fair.

I mean the project succeeded... more than succeeded even. They overshot the Kickstarter target amount by a fair margin, they finished the game (which is a fine game and very fun to play), and it's been out for quite some time now. All a lot of people are waiting for now is the physical rewards that were promised in the kickstarter. I think it's fair to expect to recieve the rewards that were promised in the Kickstarter campaign ESPECIALLY since the Kickstarter did succeed (and more than that), and the game was made and got succesfully released.

And also this:

CitizenSwift wrote:I think a "Sorry guys, this ain't gonna happen." would go down better than the silence.
And especially this:

CitizenSwift wrote:It's sad that the backers that stumped up the most cash are the ones that got none of the rewards. Even the $100 backers got something.
I mean if the problem is that sending all the stuff out is expensive, and maybe that's a problem because the game didn't sell as many copies as hoped, then please just let the Kickstarter backers now... Asking for a donation to cover the shipping cost is better than what is happening now: complete silence from their side for a few years now.
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RagingR2
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Post by RagingR2 »

The last update (date edited) to the first post of this topic was in 2014.

The last reply by a staff member in this topic was june 2016.

And apparently they said something about the physical rewards on Twitch in july 2016 -- the same month that Max Damage was released.
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Post by CzechDeath »

RagingR2 wrote:
I mean the project succeeded... more than succeeded even.
You don't know what you are talking about. I was there I have takled to the devs personally and boy are you wrong. (unfortunately) the KS campain "success" basically means nothing, the releasing (not so successfull if you recall) of the game, means nothing > Whether the game, sales enough, to keep company afloat, to generate enoug money so that it prospers, THAT is what determines what is success.
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helomyname
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Post by helomyname »

There is no need to defend Stainless, CzechDeath.

The backers that donated more than $100 have been fucked over, the kickstarter is done, the game is released.

CzechDeath wrote:Whether the game, sales enough, to keep company afloat, to generate enoug money so that it prospers
Since they are already developing another title (Carmageddon Crashers) and putting their money into that instead of shipping/getting the kickstarter rewards in the first place, i think its pretty obvious where their priorities lie. They got the money, they made the game, people have been scammed. I know you're defending Stainless because you 'like' Shane and Nobby, but please try looking at this through an objective light. They are doing nothing to redeem themselves.
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RagingR2
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Post by RagingR2 »

CzechDeath wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about. I was there I have takled to the devs personally and boy are you wrong. (unfortunately) the KS campain "success" basically means nothing, the releasing (not so successfull if you recall) of the game, means nothing > Whether the game, sales enough, to keep company afloat, to generate enoug money so that it prospers, THAT is what determines what is success.
First of all, no need to get aggressive... I don't think I was saying anything outrageous.

Secondly, I am sure you're right. A succesful Kickstarter does not mean they made huge (if any) profits on the game. But this is no way to reward your Kickstarter backers, who enabled the first 'spark' to let you make the game. Nowhere did I see a huge disclaimer like "we're only gonna send you these backer rewards if the game becomes a sufficiently large financial success". They promised rewards in return for a backing on Kickstarter, so they should deliver them. Otherwise don't make promises...

Sure, you know you're taking a risk when you're backing a Kickstarter, but that shouldn't be an excuse for them not to deliver on their promises. You know it sometimes happens, but I hope that this won't be their defense if we don't get anything at all in the end.

Also, I hope for their sake that they haven't put their hopes on crowdsourcing to help fund any future projects, if that's the way they handle promises to their backers.

Anyway... what are you trying to say by claiming the game wasn't a huge success? It sounds like you are defending that we might not see the rewards come our way, like ever. That is not the official position of Stainless, as of yet. Well we haven't heard from them in a while, which isn't much better, but if and when they talk about it, we usually here that eventually we will get the rewards.
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Post by CzechDeath »

Helomyname wrote:There is no need to defend Stainless, CzechDeath.

The backers that donated more than $100 have been fucked over, the kickstarter is done, the game is released.


CzechDeath wrote:Whether the game, sales enough, to keep company afloat, to generate enoug money so that it prospers


Since they are already developing another title (Carmageddon Crashers) and putting their money into that instead of shipping/getting the kickstarter rewards in the first place, i think its pretty obvious where their priorities lie. They got the money, they made the game, people have been scammed. I know you're defending Stainless because you 'like' Shane and Nobby, but please try looking at this through an objective light. They are doing nothing to redeem themselves.

hahah whatever you say... armchair assumptions and all that.

However I'm not here to change your opinion, nor to defend anybody =D I can only tell you that illusions got shuterred, good or bad and thus I might be standing on more solid ground, than you are with my assumptions.
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Post by RagingR2 »

CzechDeath wrote:
However I'm not here to change your opinion, nor to defend anybody =D I can only tell you that illusions got shuterred, good or bad and thus I might be standing on more solid ground, than you are with my assumptions.
That was a bunch of words!

You weren't really saying anything however...

They promised to send us rewards. They didn't send them yet.

They keep postponing the moment when they will send out rewards.

Are those armchair assumptions?

They could have calculated the shipping costs before making Kickstarter promises.

They could have foreseen the risk that the game would not become a commercial success, even when the Kickstarter succeeded gloriously.

If commercial success was necessary to be able to fulfill the promised Kickstarter rewards, they could have warned us about that in advance.

They could send us an update like every 6 months.

Are those also armchair assumptions?
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Post by Toshiba-3 »

They could have... they could have... they could have...

They would do a lot of things differently if they could go back in time. They'd probably not rely on crowdfunding at all. There's been a lot of mistakes, physical gifts being the biggest one (along with setting a stretch goal before the original goal is reached, IMO).

If we were put in their shoes back then, it's safe to assume we'd have a similar chain of decisions. I mean, it's easy to point out faults in retrospect.

It's pretty obvious that C:R/C:MD isn't a commercial success and I guess they're focusing this much on the mobile title to reach a more comfortable situation where they'll have the possibility to look back at what they left unfinished and fulfil it. That's how I see it.

A bit more transparency would be welcomed and interesting, I understand the same reply from them every 6 months is disappointing to say the least.
Image / carmageddon add-ons at road reaction
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Post by CzechDeath »

RagingR2 wrote:
Are those also armchair assumptions?
Yes - Go there, visit them, talk to them, you will understand... nothing else to be said.
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argan
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Post by argan »

Honestly, not getting anything doesn't disturb me anymore. The only thing I am disturbed at is the complete lack of any communication to us whatsoever.

If they were to say "We fucked up, sorry guys, you won't be getting your rewards." I would be completely fine with that. Shit happens, and Kickstarter projects are a risk, at best. They should just admit to that, instead of making false promises, deflecting to other projects or ignoring requests for information.
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Post by Fr0ntj3 »

the biggest problem for me is, the lower tiers got the rewards, but the higher tiers are being ignored here.

I can live with the car model disaster, and everything else that didnt turn out to be what we all hoped, but atleast give the higer tiers that what the rest already got long ago.
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Post by CzechDeath »

Fr0nt wrote:the biggest problem for me is, the lower tiers got the rewards, but the higher tiers are being ignored here.

I can live with the car model disaster, and everything else that didnt turn out to be what we all hoped, but atleast give the higer tiers that what the rest already got long ago.

Yep I payed 100 I got everything... So it is not like they did not deliver anything to anyone. It is as front pointed out issue with the higher tiers. And why that is ? I could guess. but there is too much guess work round here already.
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argan
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Post by argan »

So why is it so damned hard to give an update and clarify things? They seem to have long stopped responding to e-mails and kickstarter messages.
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Post by yuske »

argan wrote:They seem to have long stopped responding to e-mails and kickstarter messages.

They've stopped responding to questions about it on twitter, and a ticket I've opened 2 months ago is still open...
https://carmageddon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/requests/5834

I honestly don't care anymore. Feels like I've just passed all of the grief stages.

I used to love this game in the past, but the disappointment is so hard that I can't remember the last time I played on Steam. I'm just coping with the fact that I'm never getting that goody ball bag or anything else, it was just cash given away.

To me, it's good luck and good riddance.
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Post by legomeaker101 »

yuske wrote:
argan wrote:They seem to have long stopped responding to e-mails and kickstarter messages.


They've stopped responding to questions about it on twitter, and a ticket I've opened 2 months ago is still open...
https://carmageddon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/requests/5834


I honestly don't care anymore. Feels like I've just passed all of the grief stages.


I used to love this game in the past, but the disappointment is so hard that I can't remember the last time I played on Steam. I'm just coping with the fact that I'm never getting that goody ball bag or anything else, it was just cash given away.


To me, it's good luck and good riddance.


good idea don't enjoy the only thing they gave you after paying 150$ because you are mad that they didn't give you something they promised on the kickstarter while people like me have to play the inferior ps4 version because we didn't get a mac/linux version
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Post by yuske »

Legomeaker101 wrote:good idea don't enjoy the only thing they gave you after paying 150$ because you are mad that they didn't give you something they promised on the kickstarter while people like me have to play the inferior ps4 version because we didn't get a mac/linux version
I can't understand if you're ignoring something on purpouse or trying to misread what I've said.

Piece by piece, as Jack would have it. Starting with the "Good idea, don't enjoy" part. I stopped playing exactly because I couldn't "enjoy" the game.

Then, "the only thing they gave you" - considering what I expected as 1 game and a plentyful ammount of physical rewards, and I've got some games and no physical rewards, I really think you should read again.

Next, let's move on to "after paying $150" - the first correction is, as I've mentioned, the ammount of cash - the goody ball bag tier was $350, not $150. So there.

And then "because you are mad". I'm not mad, I just said, I'm disappointed. You do know the meaning of the word, right? I look at the game, I remember the promises, I remember how long it's been since nobby or anyone else said anything about the backers, and I feel sad. I feel let down.

I was going to say something on the lines of "boohoo ps4", but you finish with "because we didn't get a mac/linux version" - so you should AT THE LEAST understand the feeling I've mentioned, if not feel the exact same.

Anyway, don't bother to quote me an answer - this will be my last post around here until we have any news about the missing promised rewards.

As I've said, good riddance.
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Post by legomeaker101 »

yuske wrote:
I can't understand if you're ignoring something on purpouse or trying to misread what I've said.

Piece by piece, as Jack would have it. Starting with the "Good idea, don't enjoy" part. I stopped playing exactly because I couldn't "enjoy" the game.

Then, "the only thing they gave you" - considering what I expected as 1 game and a plentyful ammount of physical rewards, and I've got some games and no physical rewards, I really think you should read again.

Next, let's move on to "after paying $150" - the first correction is, as I've mentioned, the ammount of cash - the goody ball bag tier was $350, not $150. So there.

And then "because you are mad". I'm not mad, I just said, I'm disappointed. You do know the meaning of the word, right? I look at the game, I remember the promises, I remember how long it's been since nobby or anyone else said anything about the backers, and I feel sad. I feel let down.

I was going to say something on the lines of "boohoo ps4", but you finish with "because we didn't get a mac/linux version" - so you should AT THE LEAST understand the feeling I've mentioned, if not feel the exact same.


Anyway, don't bother to quote me an answer - this will be my last post around here until we have any news about the missing promised rewards.


As I've said, good riddance.


1.If you spent 350$ then you should try to at least enjoy the game (try that suppressor mod Alex made or some of those awesome mods made by other fans)

2.Kickstarter isn't a place where the creator is obligated by law to give you what you paid for it's a risk and you chose to take that risk do you see the ks icon next to my username? No because I prefer to pay 60 bucks for a game that got made and not a promise that I might get something

3.the original promise was ONE LEVEL not a complete game
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Post by AluminumHaste »

Legomeaker101 wrote:

2.Kickstarter isn't a place where the creator is obligated by law to give you what you paid for it's a risk and you chose to take that risk do you see the ks icon next to my username? No because I prefer to pay 60 bucks for a game that got made and not a promise that I might get something


There would not be a game without Kickstarter. The only reason you HAD the option to pay 60$ for a "game that got made" was because of the contributions of the Kickstarter backers. You're welcome.

We ensured that this game would get made. Remember? Stainless couldn't secure funding to make it, they had to prove their was a market for it still, and the kickstarter campaign did just that.

Really this thread should be locked to Kickstarter backers only, fucking plebs.
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Post by Atarugolan »

AluminumHaste wrote:
Legomeaker101 wrote:

2.Kickstarter isn't a place where the creator is obligated by law to give you what you paid for it's a risk and you chose to take that risk do you see the ks icon next to my username? No because I prefer to pay 60 bucks for a game that got made and not a promise that I might get something




There would not be a game without Kickstarter. The only reason you HAD the option to pay 60$ for a "game that got made" was because of the contributions of the Kickstarter backers. You're welcome.

We ensured that this game would get made. Remember? Stainless couldn't secure funding to make it, they had to prove their was a market for it still, and the kickstarter campaign did just that.


Really this thread should be locked to Kickstarter backers only, fucking plebs.

The problem Stailess don't want block this post at the only backers, because much time the Thread go out of topic and is much easy to manage, if is only backers he need to check.

So the problem is Stainless are thieves, robber, thief etc. He have demonstrated how the Kickstart is bullshit, so we need to boycot Kickstarter, because at person like that.

I Loved Stainless, so much, for that i have give at him a lot of money, but I see all person is same, he get but not give.
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Post by argan »

And now we learn they've been pouring money into a new project/mobile game without fulfilling or even letting us know anything about the rewards.

What the hell.

There's really not a problem wíth Kickstarter itself. I have backed Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun, Moebius, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Dead State, Shadowgate and Forsaken Fortress.

Of those, every single one have worked flawlessly (with delivered rewards in good shape, continuous updates to backers and so forth) except Forsaken Fortress, which fell through due to an underestimate of the budget. But hey, that was fine because the devs let us know a while into the project. Of course it's never fun losing money, but that's part of the risk involved in kickstarting a project. And they let us know about it! Unlike Stainless, which appear to be completely comfortable giving us backers a middle finger and leaving us hanging.
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Post by Fr0ntj3 »

it was no secret they were working on a mobile game.
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[BACKERS] Kickstarter Rewards Shipment

Post by Trent »

Atarugolan wrote:So the problem is Stainless are thieves, robber, thief etc. He have demonstrated how the Kickstart is bullshit, so we need to boycot Kickstarter, because at person like that.
Yes, without a doubt Stainless used the kickstarter to steal your money. The whole point was to take that $500k and run and they totally got away with by using the ingenious scam of actually making a game which cost like ten times that to much make. Such dastardly rascals.

except Forsaken Fortress, which fell through due to an underestimate of the budget. But hey, that was fine because the devs let us know a while into the project.
I understand that. It's a bit like how Stainless made it clear they had underestimated the budget by doing a big announcement about getting a few million in extra funding from Les Edgar back before Reincarnation's pre-alpha was released, right?

And now we learn they've been pouring money into a new project/mobile game without fulfilling or even letting us know anything about the rewards.
We now learn (early last year, shortly after Max Damage was announced) they've been pouring money (likely invested by AIG) into a mobile game (which obviously re-uses and modifies a lot of existing assets and uses Unity with a small team for a relatively quick and cheap development) without (yet) fulfilling the rewards. Yeah, screw Stainless for keeping the money flowing, what are they, a business?

Sarcasm aside, backing a game on Kickstarter is a huge risk to backers, Kickstarter make this abundantly clear before you press the "pledge" button. Actually making a game is an even bigger risk to developers. If a game does not make enough money (or, as is often likely, loses significant amounts of money) then the developers have two options: move onto something else which might make money or shut the business. Developers can desire more than anything in the world to keep working on a project forever and do everything they originally promised their fans but they won't be able to if there isn't the money to do it. Fans end up anywhere between disappointed and angry, while developers end up anywhere between heartbroken and unemployed.

People are talking about the huge amount of money they spent on backing the game so let's talk about money in proper perspective. Most gamers really don't appreciate how fucking massive the cost of making games is and how difficult it is for the vast majority of games out there to make that money back. $600k sounds like a huge amount of money which you could make anything with, but in reality it's just enough to cover running a studio of a dozen people for a year, less when you take out fees and money spent on the rewards. This game took over five times as long as that with a team four times that size. Expensive shit, right? Then there's other stuff which costs money, such as contracting specialist companies to create sound effects, licensing music (Zero Signal doesn't come cheap), licensing middleware such as Yebis and Umbra, paying for development software and hardware, etc. The money involved in making games is insane, even at the level of a small independent studio like Stainless.

But they surely made loads of money on C:MD, right? Sure. Just take a look at somewhere like SteamDB to see a good estimate of how many people own the game and multiply it by the cost of buying it on steam to have a good overestimation of how much money it made, what with substantial amounts of those players being given free keys by kickstarter backers, people buying it in sales and steam taking a cut of sales. To you or me it would be a life changing amount of money, but to a games studio which has put millions in to make a game I think it's safe to say the game didn't sell nearly as well as it needed to. Shane keeps saying they are still working towards fulfilling the rest of the rewards and will let everyone know when more details are available. I'm just making a guess here off the top of my head based on all this public knowledge, but rather than them working on Crashers instead of fulfilling rewards, maybe it's possible that getting more money coming into the company from another project such as, oh I dunno, a small mobile game, could be part of working towards fulfilling the rewards? Just a thought.
a.k.a. Brent
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helomyname
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[BACKERS] Kickstarter Rewards Shipment

Post by helomyname »

Why are you defending shitty anti-consumer practices? Just curious