The AI in Carmageddon - Better than you think!

[TwIsTeDMiNd]

Useless pathetic conspiracy thread

[Cybernettr]

TwIsTeDMiNd wrote:

Useless pathetic conspiracy thread

conspiracy |kənˈspirəsē|

noun (pl. conspiracies)

A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful: a conspiracy to destroy the government.

[TwIsTeDMiNd]

...a thread created by the same type of person who believe in shitty conspiracies. Is it better?

[flykas]

Cybernettr if you are so interested in AI behaviuor in games, I sugest you play Stalker they have pretty exclusive AI system.

While I don't believe that carmageddon AI has this inteligence because it is more simple than that, computer don't have free will, they just can do what you tell them, but I believe that clever or geniuos AI programing could create a very realistic inteligence imitation in game.

[Breakin'Benny]

Sweet Gee, Schrödinger's AI in the first Carmageddon has to be waay more fun than that stuff Cybernet comes up with... Hopefully, Reincarnation has none of this crap and the pathfinding is done in real-time, at all times.

[Trent]

Let me remind you that it's possible to disagree without being an asshole about it. Obviously, you don't like the idea of sentient software, and this discussion has struck an emotional chord with you. So be it. But flatly making an assertion, putting it in all caps, underlining it and making it red does not make it true. If you were really interested in the truth, you would be encouraging me to give more evidence to support my claims, Not trying to get me to give up altogether.

You've heard of the old saying "put up or shut up?" Well, that's what I'm doing, I'm putting up my evidence.

You aren't showing any evidence at all. Making a video and writing some captions which make hugely incorrect assumptions about what is going on does not make it true. I have tried to civilly explain to you why you are incorrect and you ignore it, you prefer to believe in the magical sentience of computer systems which do not work like that rather than listen to reason and accept the actual fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.

The subject hasn't struck an emotional chord with me, I just can't abide the complete and utter ignorance you're displaying when ignoring people who actually have the slightest idea about how game AI works while posting your ludicrous claims as "fact" and "proof" when it's simply a deluded figment your over active imagination which you're projecting on the game footage. There is no reason to "encourage" you to show more "evidence" of your claims because evidence to support your claims does not exist. I would encourage you to actually go off and learn how computers work, learn programming and learn how game AI actually works, but from our previous discussions I know you wouldn't understand a word of it. Your whole claim is based around the same logic as Cargo Cultists because you don't have the slightest idea what is actually going on with the game's AI.

The truth of the matter was made absolutely clear to you 6 months ago and I will once again repeat it in your favourite bold, red, underlined capital letters: THE GAME IS NOT SENTIENT. COMPUTERS DO NOT WORK LIKE THAT.

[Cybernettr]

TwIsTeDMiNd wrote:

...a thread created by the same type of person who believe in shitty conspiracies. Is it better?

I didn't make any posts on conspiracies. You have me confused with somebody else. I don't believe in any conspiracy theories...JFK assassination, the "faked" moon landing, 9/11 conspiracy, it's all crap.

We DID land on the moon (though not me personally) and it was pretty cool.

[Cybernettr]

Breakin'Benny wrote:

Sweet Gee, Schrödinger's AI in the first Carmageddon has to be waay more fun than that stuff Cybernet comes up with... Hopefully, Reincarnation has none of this crap and the pathfinding is done in real-time, at all times.

You are hopelessly confused. The pathfinding in C2 IS done in real time. The pathfinding in C1 was NOT done in real time. You have your facts reversed. That's why cars in C1 would teleport all over the place ala "Schrödinger's AI" in C1.

The pathfinding and AI in C2 is way better than it was in C1! You wouldn't want the developers to go backwards, would you?

In fact, that's why they put the manual cam in C2. They were obviously proud of the AI and pathfinding in C2, and how much better it was than in C1.

You sound like a real Luddite. "Boy, I sure hope they don't invent those airplane thingys because those are too dangerous!

I really don't understand all the irrational objections to strong AI in Carmageddon. I think it's freakishly awesome!

Of course, if people are afraid of seeing something, then they won't look for it. You have to stretch your mind to accept new ideas.

[Cybernettr]

flykas wrote:

While I don't believe that carmageddon AI has this inteligence because it is more simple than that, computer don't have free will, they just can do what you tell them, but I believe that clever or geniuos AI programing could create a very realistic inteligence imitation in game.

No, I never said the AI in Carmageddon has free will! In fact, that's why the AI in C2 is so closely attuned to the player's actions. It has to do everything based on what the player does.

[Toshiba-3]

The pathfinding in C2 IS done in real time. The pathfinding in C1 was NOT done in real time. You have your facts reversed. That's why cars in C1 would teleport all over the place ala "Schrödinger's AI" in C1.

C1 and C2 pathfinding are almost identical and work the same way (opponent paths + nodes + flags defining jumps, speed, width, priority of the node). Cars teleport all over the place in C2 too (USS Lewinsky!) because they react the same way to the yon value coupled to the field of view of the main camera. Really, AI in both C1 and C2 is just a script reacting to some constraints. Opponents don't even attack eachother...

Where do you get all these extravagant facts, did you reverse-engineer the games?

[Cybernettr]

The subject hasn't struck an emotional chord with me, I just can't abide the complete and utter ignorance you're displaying when ignoring people who actually have the slightest idea about how game AI works while posting your ludicrous claims as "fact" and "proof" when it's simply a deluded figment your over active imagination which you're projecting on the game footage.

You're coming across as more and more irrational with every post. You're just mad because I totally disproved your assertion on the original thread that the only reason the Riviera came down the ramp when I wasted Bugga was because I happened to be slightly closer to the ramp, or in his "zone of awareness" to use your bullshit term.

I proved in my latest video that this wasn't the case--that my proximity to the next opponent had nothing to do with his advancement toward me when I wasted Razorback.

You are trying to pose as an expert on game AI when you're not. If you were really an expert, you wouldn't be making flat-out assertions or cut-and-dried pronouncements. The REAL expert does not say "Oh, you're and idiot, you're posting a bunch of ludicrous claims , etc. They say things like "the preponderance of evidence suggests to me that..."

This thread has struck an emotional chord with you, because you're creeped out by the thought of strong AI. All you're doing is showing yourself to be a closed-minded ignoramus.

If I'm so wrong, we'll soon find out from the reaction to my videos on YouTube. If I become the laughingstock of the Internet, then so be it. The reality is, I'm going to bury you with the weight of the evidence!!

[Breakin'Benny]

You are hopelessly confused. The pathfinding in C2 IS done in real time. The pathfinding in C1 was NOT done in real time. You have your facts reversed. That's why cars in C1 would teleport all over the place ala "Schrödinger's AI" in C1.

The pathfinding and AI in C2 is way better than it was in C1! You wouldn't want the developers to go backwards, would you?

In fact, that's why they put the manual cam in C2. They were obviously proud of the AI and pathfinding in C2, and how much better it was than in C1.

You sound like a real Luddite. "Boy, I sure hope they don't invent those airplane thingys because those are too dangerous!

I really don't understand all the irrational objections to strong AI in Carmageddon. I think it's freakishly awesome!

Of course, if people are afraid of seeing something, then they won't look for it. You have to stretch your mind to accept new ideas.

Thanks for no kindness in return, though one can easily tell opponents will still teleport even in C2... You want to try explaining TDR 2000? I can, and the view-opponent cam can hilariously mess up the fake driving just 'cause one suddenly sees they were driving unrealistically. (Hell, there's a bindable option for it too!)

As for self-awareness like in WarGames, sounds moronic. If things were self-aware, they'd sooner or later get a virus that turns 'em hostile towards organic species... I can tell bots in shooters are technically experts, but have artificial stupidity added on 'em to make things easier for inexperienced ladies n' gentlemen.

[Cybernettr]

Cars teleport all over the place in C2 too (USS Lewinsky!) because they react the same way to the yon value coupled to the field of view of the main camera.

The USS Lewinsky bug is not an example of teleporting. It's a case of solid-through-solid -- of passing through a door that the player can't.

Where do you get all these extravagant facts, did you reverse-engineer the games?

No reverse engineering, which is against the EULA, just by actually playing the game, and opening my eyes as to what was happening.

[flykas]

flykas wrote:

While I don't believe that carmageddon AI has this inteligence because it is more simple than that, computer don't have free will, they just can do what you tell them, but I believe that clever or geniuos AI programing could create a very realistic inteligence imitation in game.

No, I never said the AI in Carmageddon has free will! In fact, that's why the AI in C2 is so closely attuned to the player's actions. It has to do everything based on what the player does.

I think you said something about games AI using a game bug to cheat

[Breakin'Benny]

Cars teleport all over the place in C2 too (USS Lewinsky!) because they react the same way to the yon value coupled to the field of view of the main camera.

The USS Lewinsky bug is not an example of teleporting. It's a case of solid-through-solid -- of passing through a door that the player can't.

I think I see troll logic, where NPCs or bots can go through doors not available to players. How about if a CounterStrike bot could go through a door and pop out of it in, say Office, would that be fun for normal players?...

[Cybernettr]

I think I see troll logic, where NPCs or bots can go through doors not available to players. How about if a CounterStrike bot could go through a door and pop out of it in, say Office, would that be fun for normal players?...

I never said the USS Lewinsky bug was a good thing. It was, in fact, a bug. But I do find it surprising that supposed lovers of the game Carmageddon have no trouble accepting that bug -- something that detracts from the game -- but they don't want to accept that there's strong AI -- something that makes the game greater.

[TwIsTeDMiNd]

I never said the USS Lewinsky bug was a good thing. It was, in fact, a bug. But I do find it surprising that supposed lovers of the game Carmageddon have no trouble accepting that bug -- something that detracts from the game -- but they don't want to accept that there's strong AI -- something that makes the game greater.

Because we know that theories don't equal proof and see difference between AI current limitation and human brain?

[Toshiba-3]

The USS Lewinsky bug is not an example of teleporting. It's a case of solid-through-solid -- of passing through a door that the player can't.

It's the same mechanic at work.

just by actually playing the game, and opening my eyes as to what was happening.

Not only have we played all the games since their release, but we also literally modded and hacked the shit out of both of them (and yes, we did some RE). We very clearly know the games much better than you, you're just trolling with this topic.

[Breakin'Benny]

I think I see troll logic, where NPCs or bots can go through doors not available to players. How about if a CounterStrike bot could go through a door and pop out of it in, say Office, would that be fun for normal players?...

I never said the USS Lewinsky bug was a good thing. It was, in fact, a bug. But I do find it surprising that supposed lovers of the game Carmageddon have no trouble accepting that bug -- something that detracts from the game -- but they don't want to accept that there's strong AI -- something that makes the game greater.

I never went to check that since I had more interest in wastin' at deck (or bridge), but the team must've been very close to the deadline in order to get around the door-open trigger.

[Errol]

Cybernettr, I'm a little late to this thread but I thought I would join in.

The AI is a fairly nifty state-based setup similar to the one outlined here. They even exposed the state the opponent was in in Carmageddon 2 as part of the UI. This approach - given enough factors - can lead to some pretty interesting emergent behaviour (something not explicitly programmed but the result of numerous branches and inputs into the complex system).

Firstly first, the AI in C2 is heavily influenced by the YON setting in options.txt. If the opponent is stuck/lost but within ~YON radius of the player then the opponent will not teleport. If the opponent is outside of this radius and wants to teleport they try to find a node outside of this same radius to teleport to. This is the cause of the game-freeze bug on smaller user-generated maps.

Secondly second, C1 and C2 both use the same opponent paths setup. This is a visualisation of the junkyard opponent paths from C2:



Thirdly third, the example you cite in your OP (the opponent exploding on the lift) was pure coincidence. Try playing my smash-map for Carmageddon 2 as it has plenty of moving parts, swinging things and other physics elements. The opponents routinely explode due to calculation errors.

I would truly love the AI to be secretly sentient. The idea that with this intelligence and insight it is offering up its avatars for you to destroy is philosophically delicious and conjures up thoughts of a brilliant mind, trapped within the confines of a violent racing game and wishing to die. Unfortunately I think we're simply dealing with wishful thinking with a side of selection bias.

[Cybernettr]

I would truly love the AI to be secretly sentient. The idea that with this intelligence and insight it is offering up its avatars for you to destroy is philosophically delicious and conjures up thoughts of a brilliant mind, trapped within the confines of a violent racing game and wishing to die.

I love the way you put that! LOL

I just posted another video to YouTube with half a dozen more examples of unmistakeable intelligence. Frankly, this will blow you away. Check it out here:

http://youtu.be/Qhn4EHXFhYQ

[Breakin'Benny]

If this has to be brung up, it has to: Realtime wasn't easy back in the day, because of the limited processing power and clockspeeds. If we'd play Carmageddon II in Reincarnation (Beelzebub engine with total-converted assets) that might be true since today's hardware can very likely handle it.

[Yfrid]

Cybernettr, all this stuff doesn't make any sense. ..

I do not want to sound mean, but do you realize some of the people whom you are talking and PRETEND to impose your """"facts""" does actually make new content regularly for the game?

Do you realize they make peds, cars and maps and they have to ACTUALLY DO THINGS rather than fly high in their imagination out of boredom (as you seems to do way too much)?

I did some basic stuff for the game too (a never relased test map, some peds and wip slow as shit on a new truck).

If i want to make a new map for the game as example, i don't just model the thing, slap it into the folder, drawing the racing path on MsPaint and expect the game to know how to handle it.

Opponents does not press their virtual TAB button to check the map and understand where to go, if i want to make opponents go around the track, me, a human beign have to set the path accurately node by node so the opponents basic IA does what i WROTE THEM TO while working on the map. Opponents don't think or know anything.

The reason people is getting mad is because you want to BELIEVE THINGS assuming what's happening on screen since you have no knowledge how such thing it's made behind that.

I don't pretend you to learn it. If i want to drive a car i don't need to know all the engineering behind it. That's ok.

But please understand that if ANY content relased from the fanbase works AT ALL is because they know how crucial aspects of the game works and how to produce custom content to work into it.

If others tells you what in reality is the "shadow mode" of the opponents is because they actually had to deal with such things messing with the game in the last 17 years. That's quite a shitload of time spent on the same game, from testing new things by trial and error and see if they work, to more advanced approaches like messing with HEX editors in carma2_HW.exe (where all the stuff you're talking about is written) and figure out how deeper parts of the code works. I personally do at times altering some bytes in there and see how the game reacts to it (ok, probably people more advanced than me doesn't poke into things as randomly though lol)

i feel like you think you're discussing with other people that has opposite THEORIES than yours, but here's the fact: YOU have theories because YOU have not the skills to test them out on the actual game. That's not a bad thing by itself.

The bad is pretending others to see what you THINK. while they rightfully see what they KNOW, tested in the game and had material proof of it. That's why you will NEVER convice anyone. Your theories are wrong: facts contradicts them.

[CzechDeath]

According to buddhism everything is sentient... whole universe is dreaming mind, so sure everything is possible. We and everything we made or that we see in this world - nature. All that are manifestations of that mind.

[Breakin'Benny]

At least it's nice and private now that the (not so) "AmazingArends" is gone, for now. I shudder to think that the fellow who seems to lack knowledge in programming will come back from his 7-month embarassment...he should've admitted that Carma's AI requires being outside the Yon to even teleport, and that his Apple of Enlightenment's prediction will never take place.

[Trent]

He's still making videos about all this bullshit, still as ignorant as ever and claiming his uninformed opinions about what the AI does as absolute fact. I guess he's just decided to stop posting here because of the amount of people here who actually know what they're talking about and have already countered his every argument. Of course, on his past form he's due to turn up any day now with new "undeniable mind blowing evidence" which isn't any sort of evidence at all but rather just a video of him projecting his fictional narrative on the in-game events.

[TwIsTeDMiNd]

According to his "10 Traits of Human Intelligence!! AI in video Games - Carmageddon II", he believe that AI have:

1. "Empathy": A.I. knows what the player can see

2. Motivations: A.I. knows what the player wants to do

3. Conditions: A.I. knows what the player CAN and CAN'T do

(e.g. smash through the fence)

4. Idea: A.I. has an Idea ("Hey, let's meet at the other end of the fence")

5. Communication: A.I communicates it's idea to the player

6. Psychology: A.I. uses "psychology" to try to "goad" the player into following him

7. Persistence: When the player doesn't follow right away, the A.I. tries again

8. Prediction: When player starts to move, A.I. predicts that he's going to follow it

9. Patience: When player tips over, A.I. waits for him to recover

10. Subtlety: A.I. changes "lanes" at last minute so its intentions don't seem too obvious

How on earth someone with a minimum of sense could believe this shit? That's completely retarded. He not only believe his own invented bullshit theories, he's absolutely sure he's right about it regardless his knowledge about evidence of the lack of proof.

[Breakin'Benny]

I have a concerning theory; is AmazingArends some kind of Scientologist who puts himself way higher on the list compared to others? He desperately needs his Yon in-game hacked so he can see the limits that he completely neglects.

[FatCat]

I find it funny in CR how easy it is to stop in the middle of the turning arch of an enemy AI that uses one of the less maneuverable vehicles and watch it do circles around you before deciding to flee. :P

[skyNET]

What on earth...? I missed this thread in it's day. Kind of eerie seeing skynet and terminator references just a week or so before I registered. Just like I was summoned. It must be the AI of the 'nets.

According to buddhism everything is sentient... whole universe is dreaming mind, so sure everything is possible. We and everything we made or that we see in this world - nature. All that are manifestations of that mind.

Are you a buddhist by chance? I'm not that keen on Buddhism and am wondering, because what you described above is God as I see it.

[CzechDeath]

Are you a buddhist by chance? I'm not that keen on Buddhism and am wondering, because what you described above is God as I see it.

Well I dont know what exacly defines buddhist, but lets say I'm phylosof. and in buddhism i see many things that confirmed my intuitive knowlage. Unlike religions.

[Breakin'Benny]

Are you a buddhist by chance? I'm not that keen on Buddhism and am wondering, because what you described above is God as I see it.

Well I dont know what exacly defines buddhist, but lets say I'm phylosof. and in buddhism i see many things that confirmed my intuitive knowlage. Unlike religions.

I bet Buddhism is way better than Scientology, as the former doesn't ask you to offer cash so you can get "special powers yadda-yadda-yadda". I even went on a killing spree on Fallout 2's Hubologists in San Fran and cannot regret it, unless I just give 'em fuel for the USS Quetzel so I can chuckle at their gullible fate that a "Star Father" would save them.

[skyNET]

Well I dont know what exacly defines buddhist, but lets say I'm phylosof. and in buddhism i see many things that confirmed my intuitive knowlage. Unlike religions.

As far as my knowledge goes, one of the main points of Buddhism is belief in reincarnation and karma. The common point with other religions is that it has its prophet (Siddhartha Gautama - alias Buddha). Now that we're talking about it, I will read up on the subject some more :)

What's wrong with other religions in your opinion? I take it you're hinting at "western" ones.

I bet Buddhism is way better than Scientology, as the former doesn't ask you to offer cash so you can get "special powers yadda-yadda-yadda".

I wouldn't consider Scientology as religion. I wouldn't offend any other belief by comparing them with Ron L. Hubbard's cash cow - the whole fucking hoax is based on grade C science-fiction novels, without any known moral teachings - plus the secrecy around it makes it "suspicious", so to speak.

[Breakin'Benny]

Welp, UN-mazingArends keeps going on about CARMA 2 only. Once a moron, always a moron even when he never tries to check his own theories and just bowls it all up in his adult mind (that should be way more mature than he is right now). He might as well just be called a loony and be asked to stop doing his pitiful videos where he makes wild claims that nobody'd actually believe in if he won't look for other games that support Bots (that's what you call AI-controlled characters in many multiplayer games)...and yes, TheBreakingBenny's my YouTube name, it's satisfying he doesn't remember or suspect me... yet.

[CzechDeath]

As far as my knowledge goes, one of the main points of Buddhism is belief in reincarnation and karma. The common point with other religions is that it has its prophet (Siddhartha Gautama - alias Buddha). Now that we're talking about it, I will read up on the subject some more :)

What's wrong with other religions in your opinion? I take it you're hinting at "western" ones.

Reincarnation and karma yes those are more like mental tools to help you understand your self. Buddhism is about knowing self absolutely and tru that knowlige you will realize the truth. Truth about this reality and self. And so in the end when death comes you will stay calm and lucid and you will break away from cyrcle of reincarnation.

I dissagree with New age movement and their over simplification of buddhism and other principles. There is too much idealization and miracles and other shit that has nothing to do with self knowing.

Buddhism is not religion it is phylosofy. THey dont belive in buddha, they are becoming buddha. Buddha is like black belt in understanding. Not god

I could talk about what I dont agree about with religion for days. Les just say. Religions are about controll of masses. IF they werent originaly they are now. Plus most of todays religions are the same one with different names each time, all lead back to ancient egypt and their incredibly advanced astrology. After many materials from Manly P. Hall and other mystics I agree that all the religions of today are metaphoric stories about planets and stars and their influence on earth and life on earth.

And lastly food for tought:

God is up in the sky right? but we don't live inside the god right? Now imagine our planet and imagine all people around the world looking in the sky. Where they are all looking:? Well all around the universe hence god is everywhere. So do you need church? do you need book? Are atoms of molecules of cells of your body you? They are you as well as you are them. So If we live inside god are we god? we are it aswell as it is us... that is how I see it. - by no means do I mean the bible god =D