C1 or 2 Open Source Possibilities?

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:38 pm

This is probably a very cheeky thing to ask and discuss, but what are the possibilities of the original games' source code being released open source in the same manner as games like Doom, Quake, Aliens vs Predator, Freespace and other classic PC games from the 90's?

Obviously the content would be a no-no, but being the budding hobbyist developer I am, as I'm sure many others are, it would be very interesting to have a poke around the old games' intestines and fiddle with them to create a frankenstein style fan update, get more of a grasp on some of the more obscure data formats and try hooking up updated renderers, modern networking and so on to breath new life in to these old classics?

Is it at all on the cards now you guys own the franchise and rights again, or would there be issues with them being based on the BRender engine?

Errol · Post by **Errol** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:52 pm

I would absolutely love to get my hands on the old source. I've done some decompiling and various other shady practices on the C2.exe but there's only so much you can do from the wrong end.

As far as file formats go I think we have that licked. I've got a semi-working Plaything2 replacement coded (allows import, export, all that jazz) and HarmAlarm has an incredible (or so I've heard) MaxScript that can read and write the various files too. I'll be covering the files used by C2 in my "Let's Get Technical" post on www.toxic-ragers.co.uk once I finish pulling apart TDR2000.

So, inadvertant self-promotion aside, give me the source! GIVE IT TO MEEEEE!

-Errol

Toshiba-3 · Post by **Toshiba-3** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Closest thing to opensource C1 at the moment is 1amstudios' OpenC1: http://blog.1amstudios.com but you probably heard about it already, and anyway it was made from scratch and isn't the original source code.

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:29 pm

Yeah, I've taken a gander at that and as much of a fan of XNA as I am, it's not really the same as having the original engine code being released. After all, that's just someone's impression of it and an incomplete one at that.

It's more of a desire to get a piece of history than want a remake, if you get what I mean. I'd love to see how the originals were put together, see what tricks and hacks they used to get it working the way it was and bugger about with it like that.

Harmalarm · Post by **Harmalarm** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:34 pm

Errol wrote:and HarmAlarm has an incredible (or so I've heard) MaxScript that can read and write the various files too.

I am working on an export script for 3ds max, which will enable us to export all our models directly to game-ready format. Also I created some, and will create a lot of text file helpers, that will output text chunks suitable for the 'paperwork' of track and car setup.

so it's there, it's just not finished yet ;)

C2 Scientist · Post by **C2 Scientist** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:45 pm

I am working on an export script for 3ds max, which will enable us to export all our models directly to game-ready format. Also I created some, and will create a lot of text file helpers, that will output text chunks suitable for the 'paperwork' of track and car setup.

Sounds great. Actually, even better considering that I know you're well aware of both Ase2Asc and Dan's noncar tool, meaning that perhaps I can reasonably assume it could replace both of those, plus do some more? ;)

And if it just so happens that you still need more ideas, I'm pretty sure I could always come up with something... :P

Harmalarm · Post by **Harmalarm** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:56 pm

Yup! I currently have a proper noncar export function.

What the script basically does is look for a group. Within this group you will have to place the noncars as instances. The script will take the position, rotation and scale of these noncars and will create a proper ACT file, and it will also export just 1 model to use as instance. The name of the group, will be the name of the noncar, and will count upwards from 0000 to 0001, 0002 etc.

It can do it all at once, track + noncars + other actor heirarchy tricks ;)

I am trying to also put the material in the ACT file, so we can use different materials on the same noncar. Also a fun fact is that we can now also rotate noncars in x and z axis, which Dan's noncartool couldn't do if I am not mistaken ;)

As soon as the script is in a release ready beta stage, I will write a proper tutorial to go with it.

TheCoach · Post by **TheCoach** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:01 pm

Source code for Carmageddon 2 would be great, it was a game that got rushed because of publishers stupid demands and should have been even better than it is now. Granting the community the ability to complete that game will give you community points and some very good publicity.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:09 pm

TheCoach wrote:Granting the community the ability to complete that game will give you community points and some very good publicity.

Mr. Errol Errolson's Digga brings you one huge step closer.

Errol · Post by **Errol** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:04 pm

Haha, you bastard. A skin so bad the community demanded I allow them to do better!
http://www.toxic-ragers.co.uk/news/2000/02/competition/

No-one did though.

-Errol

Toshiba-3 · Post by **Toshiba-3** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:16 pm

NOES! This is how we filled the gap D:

ok... that Digga is actually from Clutch, but it's got Ron Dumpster behind the wheel uh!

n3wton · Post by **n3wton** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:22 pm

haha awesome Tosh! :)

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:46 pm

Harmalarm wrote:Yup! I currently have a proper noncar export function.
What the script basically does is look for a group. Within this group you will have to place the noncars as instances. The script will take the position, rotation and scale of these noncars and will create a proper ACT file, and it will also export just 1 model to use as instance. The name of the group, will be the name of the noncar, and will count upwards from 0000 to 0001, 0002 etc.

It can do it all at once, track + noncars + other actor heirarchy tricks ;)

I am trying to also put the material in the ACT file, so we can use different materials on the same noncar. Also a fun fact is that we can now also rotate noncars in x and z axis, which Dan's noncartool couldn't do if I am not mistaken ;)

As soon as the script is in a release ready beta stage, I will write a proper tutorial to go with it.

That's pretty damn awesome. Can't wait for the beta release, I might give track and/or car making a go again using it. Every time I've tried so far I've always got frustrated with the amount of ping-ponging between the various tools and Plaything crashing so never finished anything. If I can set up most of it in Max and export it directly then that will save a lot of the headaches I was running in to :D

SwissCM · Post by **SwissCM** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:54 pm

The 3D engine Carmageddon uses, Blazing Engine, is a licensed third-party creation. I doubt they have the rights to release the source code.

Toshiba-3 · Post by **Toshiba-3** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:06 pm

On the other hand, the guys who have the rights for the BRender engine code (Synopsys) have nothing to do with gaming etc. Would they really care or even notice? BRender is really old now. I guess they could negociate something, who knows?

Errol · Post by **Errol** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:25 pm

I'd assume it's the physics and car deformation code they won't want to release. Even now, 12 years on, it's still the best out there.

-Errol

AdamtheClown · Post by **AdamtheClown** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:03 am

Errol wrote:I'd assume it's the physics and car deformation code they won't want to release. Even now, 12 years on, it's still the best out there.
-Errol

Sadly, thats true. And I love how car games nowadays have NO car damage, but a 12 year old game has the best deformation around... :P

SwissCM · Post by **SwissCM** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:16 am

That's not really fair. Most major racing titles within the past few years have car damage (Forza, Gran Turismo, Need for Speed etc). The damage modelling just haven't been as extensive which is a necessity when dealing with licensed cars.

No excuse for the Burnout series though. The games are great but the crashes feel very pre-calculated.

AdamtheClown · Post by **AdamtheClown** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:49 am

I few small dents and the "damage" textures don't really count as damage for me... :P

The only car games that I've played that has actual damage is GTA IV, Burnout (but like Swiss said, it seems pre-calculated), FlatOut 1 & 2, MotorStorm, and of course, Carmageddon games (specially II).

khorko · Post by **khorko** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:52 am

Surviving car crash with bus I can say physics engine is still the best,and very realistic.It would be cool if the source is released.Is good to see that mod community is still alive and kicking thank you guys for not leaving best driving game die

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:53 am

Have any of you played Need For Speed: Shift 2? That game has probably the more realistic car destruction and deformation systems of any game. You can utterly trash the cars in it.

Carmageddon's system isn't great because it's realistic, it's great because of how dynamic it is and how far ahead of its time it was. These days any developer can just hook in Havoc or PhysX and get a fully featured physics which supports most of the features Carmaggedon used, probably only missing the dynamic mesh splitting.

As much I love Carmageddon and enjoy it's very arcadey physics, I can't say it's the best representation of car physics around, It was back then, but it's since been eclipsed. In fact it's actually very unrealistic when you compare it to what guys like Turn 10 and Codemasters are doing with their respective games these days.

On the open source front, I thought BRender was owned by Argonaut who shut its doors in 2004? I'm finding it difficult finding how bought them out, but I can't find any mention of Synopsys buying the licensing rights to the engine. Where'd you hear about that, Errol?

Toshiba-3 · Post by **Toshiba-3** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:59 am

Argonaut was split in two, one part became Argonaut Games, the other part was more tech and went into IP providing etc. That second part kept the BRender project, then they were bought by Virage Logic (they were rebranded ATL then ARC meanwhile) and Virage Logic was acquired by Synopsys last year.

So yeah actually it's a bit of a wild guess but Synopsys probably has the BRender code rights now if it wasn't sold to a third party before.

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:47 pm

Ahh, fair enough, that makes sense. That's a bit of a complicated changing of hands.

I wonder how much value Synopsys would put on the BRender code given how old it is and that pretty much all the rendering code would be useless in trying to make a modern game. The way graphics hardware works now compared to even 2004, when I assume it was last actively developed, is so different it's not even funny. Even the top end cards of the time were barely began to touch the DX9 techniques we think of as standard.

It would be interesting to find out where exactly the rights lie and in what form without just guessing :)

AdamtheClown · Post by **AdamtheClown** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:08 pm

I haven't played Shift 2 because I have no money on me right now (yes I have a job but I'm saving up money and I want to get Shift 2 for the PC, not PS3).

Monsignor · Post by **Monsignor** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:42 am

I do not agree that Shifts 2 damage model is better. It just looks better because the game's graphics is on much higher level. But you can see that hull damage is pre-calculated, the total amount of damage is limited and removable parts like bumper or wheels behave strange.

For example, watch this video on 13-15 seconds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCOwpTMn08o

Trent · Post by **Trent** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:39 am

Every time I've played it the deformation has looked plenty dynamic. You hit a barrier in it and the bodywork warps around the point of impact. It's got some heavy constraints on it, yes, but it is dynamic. If it didn't have constraints then it would look totally unrealistic as games such as the old Carmageddons and Viper Racing do, where cars get crushed so wildly it often looks stupid. Fun, but stupid.

It's by far the most realistic representation of car damage of any game I've played. The cars break and fall apart in the way they actually would in real life rather than some over the top artistic interpretation of it. It's not so loose that minor hits crumple everything to hell and back, but it's not so tight that huge crashes only do minor damage. It's a very realistic amount of damage for the crashes seen in the game.

The strange behaviour you mentioned is, you know, the general physics and collision bugs as happens in every single game which tries to represent physics. It's simply impossible for games to have a 100% accurate physics system as that would be far too calculation heavy. Even Carmageddon has those same problems.

AdamtheClown · Post by **AdamtheClown** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:20 pm

I completely forgot about Viper Racing. xD

Viper Racing... Really fun game (back in the day). Last time I played that game was 2 yrs ago...

Yup, this is definantly realistic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRDT4LmjlM&feature=related

And Rigs of Rods has some pretty awesome damage. If you crash into a pole the cars body (if it has flexbody (i think thats what it is call since I havent played in a while)) goes around the pole (you should know what I mean) and if it hits a wall it deforms pretty realistically (to an extent): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHDWRtJXZy0

silversurfernhs · Post by **silversurfernhs** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:18 pm

AdamtheClown wrote:I completely forgot about Viper Racing. xD

Viper Racing... Really fun game (back in the day). Last time I played that game was 2 yrs ago...
Yup, this is definantly realistic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhRDT4LmjlM&feature=related

And Rigs of Rods has some pretty awesome damage. If you crash into a pole the cars body (if it has flexbody (i think thats what it is call since I havent played in a while)) goes around the pole (you should know what I mean) and if it hits a wall it deforms pretty realistically (to an extent): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHDWRtJXZy0

Viper Racing was another that had a great community, although the gameplay was less dynamic. It happened to be and still is my favorite car, so i loved racing a career mode and upgrading and seeing the difference...

Wich i could get it to run though, last time i played it was a year ago, in college when it last peeked my interest. I think i VMWared it. That one should be a no brainer to Open Source... SRY back to the topic...

C2 Scientist · Post by **C2 Scientist** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:13 pm

I also liked the fact that most upgrades in Viper Racing really made a noticeable difference. And that you had to work for the money to buy them, unlike in NFS Porsche for example, where you basically could buy the full list of upgrades along with the next model (which usually happened after each event, for that matter). But then, Viper Racing doesn't feature 50+ models, only one... =P

Fireman · Post by **Fireman** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:19 pm

Errol wrote:Haha, you bastard. A skin so bad the community demanded I allow them to do better!
http://www.toxic-ragers.co.uk/news/2000/02/competition/
No-one did though.

-Errol

Create a topic in the competition forum? :P

Surely more people would respond.

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