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Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

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Deep_Blue
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Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

I hadda make an entirely new cockpit image for the C1 motorcycle I made.
So I hadda d/l an image of a Harley Ultra Classic fairing dashboard off the web and make the existing C1 cockpit instruments fit it and work correctly.

Because the instrument needles are in different places and act differently than stock C1 gauges, this gave me a really good opportunity to screw with some settings.

Here's what I've found so far:
COCKPIT STUFF.jpg
COCKPIT STUFF.jpg (135.89 KiB) Viewed 10134 times
Speedo/tach/gears images: Low numbers (x,y) move the image up and left on the dash image. High numbers move it down and right.

Instrument needles: There are numbers for center of rotation, needle length, start angle, end angle, and speed of movement.

I d/l'ed an image of an automotive degree wheel to help figure angles-then I realized that the degree wheel needs to be oriented/rotated 90 degrees to the *right* (with 90* being straight down-other wise the needles go to strange places.)

Gears indicator is a piece'o cake.
COCKPIT STUFF 2.jpg
COCKPIT STUFF 2.jpg (56 KiB) Viewed 10134 times
Again, low numbers (x,y) move the gear indicator up and left and high numbers move it down and right.

The mirror location is also defined by (x,y) coords.
Same as with the gears indicator only the size/shape of the mirror is defined by the *difference* between the top, left, right, and bottom cords.

All coords are in pixels. I couldn't figure out how to reference 'pixels from where' so I just used the pixel coords from the image in PSP and added 30 pixels in whatever direction I wanted the image to go.

Anyways, here's what I ended up with:
HDUltra_Dash.jpg
HDUltra_Dash.jpg (100.75 KiB) Viewed 10134 times
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hazardic
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by hazardic »

wow quite impressive job, especially with analog gauges. btw will you add mirror frame to cockpit image or leave it as it is, floating in air?
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

I left it as-is on account of I didn't know how to add a frame-and it wouldn't have lined up with the mirror arm off the handlebar anyway.

I just moved it to where it'd be close to where an actual motorcycle mirror would be and still be useable in the forward cockpit view.

I'm actually surprised that I was able to figure out what I did. I blew a lotta shit up trying!
:lol:

If you can figure out how to add a frame-I'm all ears.

:grin:
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by coffeycup »

I bet you had fun wearing your mad scientist hat! :lol:

Wouldn't the mirror frame be just part of the dashboard art?

Image

You're never going to get round mirrors or move the mirror to the side views as far as I know.
Just add a little bit of frame around where you have it currently positioned.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

I think yer prolly right, Coffey. The stock C2 mirror doesn't have a frame so it makes sense that a frame would be part of the dashboard art.

Actually the hardest part of all this was playing with the needle movement speeds and getting the speedo and tach needles to act in unison according to what gear was displayed.

1st gear=tach high/speedo low
2nd gear-tach high/speedo lil higher
3rd gear=tach high/speedo mo' higher
4th gear=tach high/speedo catching up with tach
5th gear=tach and speedo needles even
6th gear=speedo needle lil higher than tach

Just as it would be IRL.

I'll keep pluggin' away at it with each new vehicle. There's always room for improvement, but at least I now know how the instruments work.

I'll give it a shot if ya don't mind updating the zip *yet again*

:supercrazy:
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

It crash.
I still need to figure out why.
But first things I found so far:

Code: Select all

5				// Number of lines
Harley's heavyweight
tourer.
You have 2 lines here, so should be set to 2

Another thing - encrypted files are not a good idea - encryption may differ depend of exec we have, so encrypted file from one version may not work with another. IWANTTOFIDDLE also may cause files to be corrupted... so best is to leave them in text form. If you want to made them usable without cheat just add PROG.ACT with "i am fiddling" line. Or start your text files with @6+ line - this is simple trick to fool game to think file is encrypted (this is just // line). I have discovered that trick making test car selector for xmas SP demo.

BTW: It's also interesting to put this @6+ line at beginning of text format PATHS.TXT - game will not encrypt that file anymore :)

Code: Select all

3						// Number of dimmed areas (external)
566,353,623,467					// Dim rectangle
60,437,81,474					// Dim rectangle
86,437,135,474					// Dim rectangle
0						// Number of dimmed areas (internal)
Here you can define semi transparent boxes (same way as for external view - above), not tested well, but probably cannot be visible on other images (cockpit parts), since this is background feature.

Note: for robots/zombie we need to add sound also to KSOUND.TXT (and other SOUND.TXT files if any - like in my All Peds patch)

Another thing - you have problem with transparency - please use tools with purple (pink exactly) palette build in - use my "Purple Palette Patch" :) - some of your graphics / textures have small to strong (cockpit left/right view) random transparent areas.

I have fixed all transparency issues for you - just replace your textures/graphics/etc. with this:
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_GFX_FIX.zip
(125.68 KiB) Downloaded 139 times
With that fix it not crash anymore (in my version, tested as player only), but you have broken external view setup and there is also crush data leaved from other car - origami like effect - you know. The file GULTRA.PIX is not needed in 64X48X8 subfolder, but I have replaced it with corrected version (you may delete this file after patching).
Last edited by QTZ on Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Hmm... OK.

That's funny....I haven't had any transparency problems. The only place I use transparencies are on windshields and wheels (where there are holes or spokes). I use RGB 0,0,0 in C1 Race palette. and RGB 255,255,255 in Menu palette. Same as the guys who made the game did.
WEZ.jpg
WEZ.jpg (28.27 KiB) Viewed 10096 times
No issues there. Mebbe the stuff Maxy and I are making is incompatible with Mastro's mod??
I dunno. It works in the stock C1 and it works in Tosh's C1-SP Melt. Game-wise and rendering-wise.

Any place on, say, a dashboard or a body panel that ended up transparent is because I *forgot* to change the color. :wink:

OK just checking the opponent txt bit I put in the zip... I should have just copied the first couple lines instead of the entire chunk. My 'descriptor' in the game I have still describes Agent Orange-and THAT'S 5 lines. Should be 2
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

Sorry, I know what I'm talking about, game version have nothing to do with transparency (I tested it with regular Max Pack C1 + SP exec, but all errors are visible in exported files with PP). I'm working with C1 not from today. Why you don't use PPP - look at your files then and you will see what I'm talking about - it's also visible in game. The guys who made the game was used palettes which I have used in PPP. Maxine have only problem with exported images, she knows how to import own images correctly. However build correct palettes in tools make both process easier - on import we have proper preview and we don't need any attention on export.

Please check the files I included above for you, thanks.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

OK....Is anyone else *other than* QTZ having issues with the transparencies in my cars?


Just checking.

Oh yeah.....What exactly is a 'broken external view setup?'

I use Carmagedit to import images like everyone else. I have the C1 race palette and the C1 menu palette saved in my paint program-saved from actual exported C1 images.


I fail to see the problem other than I forgot to change a number in the opponent.txt bit and missed importing a fixed left cockpit view.

My eyes are a half-century old-They're not blind. I've looked at my results ingame and I can't see any transparency errors other than where I may have missed changing a color to other than RGB 0,0,0 somewhere. I usually go over all the dark black parts of the images with RGB 20,20,20 or 33,33,33 depending on the shade I want to use.


Why is the GULTRA starting grid image not necessary? I didn't want the car specified in the donor text to appear there-I wanted the motorcycle I made to appear there. GULTRA is that motorcycle.

Looking at the left cockpit view on the Ultra.... That's not a palette error. That's a 'forgot to change the color error.'
Image1.jpg
Image1.jpg (15.75 KiB) Viewed 10088 times
The right cockpit view doesn't have that transparency because I went back over it with a lighter color where you see the transparency. Obviously when I mirrored the image for the left side-I forgot to import it in Carmagedit to fix that. The right view doesn't have that transparency. At all.



EDIT again*

OK, I have read up on the purple patch over at devWAM, saved it and will try it out as soon as I get time.
The only upside to it that I can see is that it allows use of RGB 0,0,0 as an actual color instead of a transparency. Now I get it. Purple is rarely used in C1. Black gets used a lot.

The errors you see are just my absent-mindedness or hurry to get the finished thing out the door.

Is there any specific place that I need to unzip/install the GoPurple.exe to? Or is it a standalone thing?
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Mad_Maxine »

Havent said anything yet but I really like the way that inside view came out, pretty awsome, Never even considerd a dash fro a bike :3 I guess I woulda jsut had a blank dash screen.

Anyway nice work, fits well, and the leaning will give it that cool first personey ness.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

Broken external setup
Broken external setup
DUMP0010.PNG (6.06 KiB) Viewed 10073 times
Deep_Blue wrote:Why is the GULTRA starting grid image not necessary?
It's not necessary in DATA\64X48X8\PIXELMAP\, but it's necessary in DATA\32X20X8\PIXELMAP\. I have corrected it too (I also set correct names inside this and other of your pixelmaps).

GoPurple is a patch - you can run it from whatever you want, but on same machine as your tools / games are :wink: - read build in text - then select folder contains files to patch, do it multiple times for every C1 tools you are using (you may also patch game palettes - some tools using palettes from game). After patching use your tools as usual.
Deep_Blue wrote:I use Carmagedit to import images like everyone else. I have the C1 race palette and the C1 menu palette saved in my paint program-saved from actual exported C1 images.
After patching use new palettes exported from new images.
Deep_Blue wrote:Purple is rarely used in C1. Black gets used a lot.
The color (close to pink) it's not used in C1 at all, so using this color we are sure it's transparent.

The color replace transparent black, so it's visible on edit and in game become transparent. Proper black stay solid (RGB 0,0,0 can be used safely).
Patch also replace duplicated black color (as Stainless did) for menu palette, so we have one more level of black visible/available (many original graphics using that color).
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Oh, OK. Just run the patch in the folder of every tool I want to use. That's simple enough.

I like the idea of being able to use 0,0,0 black. Lots of stuff we make is that color. Tires don't have to be gray anymore. :grin:

Ok, I will check out the external gauge setup. I don't remember changing any of that, but it's possible that it uses some information from the inside setup that I DID change...

I'll have to investigate further.

OK, I have installed the patch to Carmagedit v1-1, which I use to edit Carma 1. I understand this will also patch Trixx?
Should I see something different when I load a pix file? Or will it only affect pix files made/imported *after* the patch was installed?

Now how do I use it? What RGB value is the new transparency color?
How does the game know pink is now transparent? (Don't want peds with black boxes around them).
Won't the game still use RGB 0 black as transparent?

I don't quite understand how this is going to work yet...
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

Tested with different versions of the game and as expected I got this:
ENCRYPTED.PNG
ENCRYPTED.PNG (4.96 KiB) Viewed 10044 times
So I have decrypted txt files and fixed decryption errors. Also I have removed CRUSH DATA (no more origami), corrected external view (you have replaced digital display pix with tacho), removed redundand corrupted data at the end (copy of last 7 lines).
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_TXT_FIX.zip
(3.46 KiB) Downloaded 124 times
BTW: Is this typo or made in purpose?:

Code: Select all

0.0,	0.0061,	-0.161						// left front wheel position
(in corresponding lines there is 0.061 value)

I found another problem, but the only solution I know is to paint something or use solid color background on that areas:
internal.png
internal.png (57.1 KiB) Viewed 10042 times
(In original cars they cover this with 3d model or cockpit image have this area covered, same happened in front view - try to hide pratcam)

About your questions:

Yes, you can patch Trixx (this will produce another Trixx exec for menu palette files) and all other known tools too - look GoPurple build-in text for details.

In Carmagedit preview you will see transparent areas as pink instead of black (it just swap palettes, so it affect all pixelmap no matter if original or edited), then export image and check RGB values for transparent areas (a bit different color is used for menu and race palettes).

Game don't care what this (or other) color is. C1 pixelmaps are palette based - this mean pixelmap store only color indexes (one Byte for each pixel), not colors values (3 Bytes RGB per pixel). This limiting us to 256 colors (1 Byte can have value from 0 to 255), but create 3 times smaller files with external palette file. Each index select color stored in palette. Color indexed as 0 is always transparent. Since palette used in game have two same blacks, when we try to edit exported bitmap with external graphics program it merge same colors (those two blacks) to lower available, so black turns to other black (indexed as 0) and become transparent - so real black is gone. Now when we have pink (on index 0) instead, this will not happened - solid black will stay solid.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

OK...I'm understanding a little better now.

What I want to know is if I am creating a *new* transparency-What color should I now use to do so? (If the pink/purple is now set as transparent instead of black.)

I looked in patched Carmagedit at a ped pix from the game and the background is black like always.
Cgedit.jpg
Cgedit.jpg (24.21 KiB) Viewed 10032 times
Are you saying I should be seeing a pink background for transparency in Carmagedit now?

(This is what I'm trying to understand-what color to use for transparency if black is no longer set as transparent. I use Paint Shop Pro (old version) and I pick colors no matter the palette by RGB value.)

Yes! That WAS a typo. Should be 0.061(Y) for left front wheel. :crazy:
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

PPP updated - now it start with current path, so you can copy it wherever you need and start from that location instead of picking path form PPP. It's look like you have not patched CE, so grab new PPP and try again - ped background should be pink.

I have fixed "leaks" problem I have described above - here the new cockpit files:
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_CKPT_LEAKS_FIX.zip
(91.62 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
To cover leaks I have added 3 bars: top, bottom (if needed) and right.
Bottom bar is brown. Top bar is in some dark color. (Both can be any colors, but not transparent.)
Left view is covered to same height as right, to keep both sides same look.
Right bar is pure black, it covers 2 pixels leaks and in game player will not notice its presence.
CKPTULTF.PNG
CKPTULTF.PNG (63.52 KiB) Viewed 10019 times
(This is also as it should look like with PP.)
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

OK. This is what I see now:
Cgedit.jpg
Cgedit.jpg (22.67 KiB) Viewed 10015 times
Apparently my Carmagedit shortcut was pointing to the un-patched (replaced) .exe.

I see also that when an exported .bmp is put into a paint program, the paint program automatically loads the correct palette. The purple color is RGB 255,0,240

Well damn... That was easy. Thanks! I'll use that gawd-awful pink color for transparencies from now on. :lol:

Sheesh. I sure appreciate ya fixin' up my bike. I guess I need to pay more attention to the small details....Like I said before-you guys sure have come a long way since I renamed a C1 dat file and put it in the wrong place and saw a different model.

:grin:
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

Now it's OK :thumbsup:

I found yet another tiny thing - when we hit something we have green "parts".
This can be easy fixed - in this Toshiba's C1 Helpers archive, we can find C1_SimpleMaterials.png that illustrate which material set to have proper color. I think M49.MAT or M30.MAT should be OK (instead of M43.MAT). This also determine network map car indicator color.

(In this archive Toshiba-3 included more interesting files.
There are also PP palettes, but only external and with different pink [*.pal & *.act files].
Since you exporting palettes from exported bitmaps, you don't need palettes from this archive.)
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_TINY_FIX.zip
(3.19 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
Here the txt & once again edited GULTRA.PIX - this time I set the height 1px smaller - now frame looks better - so this is the main reason to put that update.

This bike leave two trails for one wheel?!

Also, I have no idea why (I guess something with text setup), but from time to time it "flashing" - it looks like it "jump" and we can see it bigger (turn side closer to camera) for a very short time. Then It can be observed on replay.

There is also some problem with sound... it's too good probably - I will take a closer look.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Yeah, I noticed the two skidmarks. shouldn't be that way but I don't know exactly why.

All front wheels and back wheels are at zero X axis.

The 'suddenly bigger' bike on replay happens with cars on replay, too. I notice that it happens when looking from the side and the camera is close to a vertical solid surface such as a guardrail, wall, fence, or terrain. Same if it is too close to another vehicle.

Rotating to a different view position away from whatever it is physically behind the camera usually cures that.

At least that's what I know of it.

Man, there ain't no missing THAT ugly-ass color. :lol:
PSP C1 race pal.jpg
PSP C1 race pal.jpg (11.61 KiB) Viewed 9986 times
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

You have missed last two text lines for sound and there was no sound at all.
I also converted ULTRA.WAV to similar quality as other waves in C1 (this is probably not necessary, but not tested with DOS/HW=GOG versions).
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_SOUND_FIX.zip
(50.67 KiB) Downloaded 141 times
About "jumping camera" - this happened too often, unexpected, not like with other cars - just driving straight line.
Driving straight...
Driving straight...
DUMP0000.PNG (61.78 KiB) Viewed 9980 times
...and then unexpected camera jump over... - this happened for 1 frame (I think) and then go back to previous view
...and then unexpected camera jump over... - this happened for 1 frame (I think) and then go back to previous view
DUMP0001.PNG (42.73 KiB) Viewed 9980 times
This happened on play where there are no obstacles (except for ground change), on replay we can see replay from that (this not happened on replay only).


Every tool when exporting bitmap from pixelmap adding available palette, so exported bitmap contains palette which was used by tool.

On import, bitmap palette is removed and we see colors currently used by tool.

Similar as when we are opening pixelmaps, but there is nothing to remove - there are no palettes (in most cases).

(Some SP pixelmaps contains palette/s, but this cause problems with older tools and it's not used for bitmap export, also game ignore that palettes. As far as I remember PT2 [PT1 probably not?] show that pixelmaps correctly [using pix palettes].)
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Hmm..

OK.

Tell me more about the "@6+" and the textfiles. I'm curious.
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

Sorry, I have not much time right now... What can I say - just look my XMAS car selector, make new PATHS.TXT file - install new C1 (do not run yet!) add this @6+ as first line to PATHS.TXT then run the game - file will remain in text form. Game can use any text files starting with this line (I hope this is valid for every version - tested just for few). This is also wrong to add @ at beginning of normal text (as was in your file). If you need to mix text with encrypted data (this is very useful for tests) just add text below any decrypted line/s (this @6+ for example). Try this, but best with new installation without cheats.

With cheat - when PROG.ACT with magic text (I spell it above) is present files may start from text too. But in general this is not good to release files in encrypted form since different version have different code used.


And finish this motorbike - it still need mirror frame ;)
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Hmm..

I didn't add anything at the beginning of my textfile. That must have been a Carmagedit artifact of some sort.

I have seen weird stuff like that happen before.

Nah...I made this bike as an experiment. I'm pretty much done editing it, but I have learned some things from you and I will try to apply them to the next model and textures I make.

Thanks for the education, man!

:grin:
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by QTZ »

You're welcome :wink:


So here is full pack updated with all fixes listed above, plus darker brown background on inside view.
C1_Harley_Ultra_Classic_updated.zip
Full package with all updates
(233.06 KiB) Downloaded 135 times
I see you have enough with this, but I'm curious what happening with that bike...
MAP.PNG
MAP.PNG (18.66 KiB) Viewed 9923 times
In that place is wooden part of road where this bike always drown falling down through that woods. I guess reason must be same as for camera jumps.

Maybe someone find out what is wrong?
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

That is not the first user made vehicle I've seen that does that there.

I noticed that when I had the center of mass set to a lower Y coordinate-the camera would follow the bike but it would be under the boards while the bike was traveling over them.
For that reason I raised the center of mass value higher. (High value makes bike more unstable but easier to lean in turns-lower value makes it more stable but harder to lean.
I settled for a medium point where the bike was still fairly controllable and still acted like a bike.)

I have also noticed that if I slow down when crossing those boards and cross them flat with both wheels on the ground-it won't fall through and drown-usually.

Only when hitting the boards fast or at an angle to the ground does it fall through for me, and only there. Coastal Carnage woooden bridge does not have this problem.

(Maybe because Coastal Carnage bridge is 2 planes (you can drive under it) and this wooden bridge is not? I don't know.)
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Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Toshiba-3 »

Sorry for the bump.

QTZ asked me to look into that weird wooden bridge issue. It's definitely caused by the lower Y center of mass, but also by the wooden bridge itself. Even if you set the Y value a bit above 0, it might still go through it depending on your speed. I even tested by doing proper actors (and thus a proper bbox). Also tried playing with the AMP and that center of mass but to no avail. A close workaround is to separate the front and rear virtual wheels a little (instead of being centered on X=0) and having a center of mass with Y=0.015 or 0.02. But that will display more skidmarks and the sinking camera glitch might still happen. Not much to do in this case TBH.

While I was at it, I reviewed the mishaps of the addon setup:
- the same FLI file is used for both car and mug menu images
- description lines in OPP.TXT aren't really a good idea as the menu image aren't prepared
- resources (PIX, MAT) for the green hawk bonnet can be removed in the text file (but the ACT and DAT ofcourse)
- the angular momentum proportions were off (PT2 can help you get an idea of what to put there)
- you can enlarge the rendering areas for the cockpit view (and thus not having to rely on black bars etc.)
- you can move the internal damage indicator out of the screen too
- some grooves can be removed (as the addon has only 2 visible wheels)
- your material names don't use prefixes! some names could cause conflicts (end.mat, enginer.mat, fair.mat, etc.)
- additional bbox points are within the main bbox so can be removed
- wheel size values are off
- the bike is a bit too powerful, I'd advise not to touch the tract. fract. mult. value (nor the down-force to speed value)
- model contains 400+ unused vertices (PT2 optimize function can sort it out magicaly)
- and finaly, the most difficult parts for C1 modders: meshes aren't centered on the origin and actors are (should be the contrary).

Ofcourse this addon works as is, but that list might come in handy for the next addon?! :sbsmile:
Image / carmageddon add-ons at road reaction
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Deep_Blue
Road Puppy
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: In the Wind

Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Hey Tosh.

Those traction values, if I remember correctly were copied straight out of the txt of one of my working C2 bikes.
Reason being because the physics were too...'slippery' otherwise. Also because it made the bike easier to control and kept it acting like a bike. Setting up the traction values like that made the bike begin to lean in a reasonable amount of time without much delay. The only thing I couldn't work around was the 'nose-up' effect when handbraking. (Should nosedive instead).
I've always wondered about the tunnel's wooden bridge. It's only that one that seems to cause that falling through issue. I've seen four-wheeled add on vehicles fall through there, too. Something about the angle of contact or speed, because if I slow the vehicle down and hit it more or less flat-the vehicle doesn't fall through-bike included.
Is that bridge only one plane? (Because it's not expected for anybody to drive under it). The wooden bridge in Coastal Carnage doesn't have that problem (and you can drive under it).

Mebbe that makes a difference?
***When I die may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline***
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Doritoskng
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:40 am

Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Doritoskng »

I sometimes have issues with that bridge with standard game vehicles... not sure why.
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Deep_Blue
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:00 pm
Location: In the Wind

Re: Figuring out C1 cockpit settings for instruments

Post by Deep_Blue »

Could also have something to do with the bridge being below the x/z axis? Gently sloping roads do "t have that problem- only there it seems where the angle is radically different. I dunno.
***When I die may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline***
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