The real Carmageddon II Online...

[Wolverine]

Thanks for the offers, i'll bear you in mind lentilky

Also, here is the mirror for the latest video (the race): http://rapidshare.de/files/2616912/C2O- ... E.rar.html

James.

[TTR]

Looks promising, but what makes me wonder is...does the other player see the other persons peds?

[Wolverine]

Each player has their own peds like normal, but i do plan on reducing the amount of peds and syncing them. Especially for a mode i have planned... where the first to kill the most peds wins.

Hope this makes sense

James.

[TTR]

Yeah it does, sounds cool You are going to use all the tracks? Will it be the network layout menu or just the single player menu?

[Wolverine]

All tracks will be usable, as will all cars. You simply use the single player menu at the moment and select the same track as the host/client and away you go.

[TTR]

I see, now what if someone uses an addon car which the other client/jost doesnt have...will it let the player see the car thats on that place? or will it crash?

[bruner_james]

i would expect that it would crash. in some other games you would probably need the other car to have it show up. but i think you will need to have it in the right order in the .txt....

[NitroX]

@ TTR : Common Network rules.

[C2 Scientist]

Ahhh, couldn't download the video from Rapidshare, said that the file can't be located on the server, for some reason... and now I would have to wait an hour. (after which I would probably just get the error message again... no way!)

[Wolverine]

God and i haven't had an e-mail from my host either, but it is the weekend tho so... i'll try and fix up something when i can. The car question is a good one, but all i'd do there is run a check on the games before the host launches to ensure that only cars which everyone have are available to choose in the single player menu. Should be fairly easy enough to implement

I'd like this mod to work out for the community so don't hesitate to bring up things like that, i'll try and answer any questions i can. If there's anything i haven't thought about we can come up with a solution here.

[blacksunshine]

lets see if i have this correct. if you want to play online and you have addon cars installed,

you wont be able to play if you select one? so just the basic cars that came with the game.

someone correct me if i am wrong. second. when will this game be ready? (not to be pushy)

and last, what if you put up a link with addon cars( a few) to play with in the game so every one

could play without any problems...? what do you think?

[NitroX]

Here's the way I see it .. If you are good enough to call yourself an expert at c2, then you can easily race with the originals .. that's how we play online with tdr2000 .. it's just easier for everyone .. no extra downloads.

[Qwerty_86]

Wow, this sounds interesting. Well, in Midtown Madness, if the host doesn't have a car that a player wants to use, it is locked on the player's comp. If the host uses a car the player doesn't have, the default car (the VW Beetle in that game) is displayed on the player's comp, but it has the speed of the host's car instead.

[Alex_Dynamite]

I remember that...

I'm guessing it'll be like that. Each vehicle is given an ID number and the game seems to use this. For example, wth some missions with specific opponents, such as the cop mission, it would use a number to choose what vehicles to be used. If you moved the cop car with Carstockalyps, that mission would use the vehicle that takes it's place. So I'd have to guess that the multiplayer games would work the same. If you haven't already, just look in the OPPONENT.TXT file. There's a few other things in there, such as 'Network availability'.

[Defcon]

about addon cars.....

using different cars is an interresting thing....

downloading them no...like most cars in c2 has about 2 to 4 MB that´s like 1 or 2 min download....

but the txt file from the car has about 15kb, nothing.....so....

is there any possibility to: when someone use a car the other player doest have, the one that doesnt have download just the txt file in a default car like the "eagle" ?

i hope u understand me wolverine.........

thx for ur attention......

[Wolverine]

Hello again,

I probably confused you with my car checking process. Let me have another go, this shows a list of the cars these three players have installed:

Server:____Guest1:____Guest2:

-eagle_____-eagle_____-eagle

-addonA___-addonF____-addonH

-addonF___-addonG____-addonF

-addonG___-addonP____-addonP

So, with this in mind as "one possible scenario" a car check would determine that all players have the standard car "eagle" and the addon car "addonF". Thus, the eagle and addoncarF would be available in the single player menu for everyone.

Hope this clarify's what i meant. I will do my upmost to support addons.

I doubt i will be able to implement such fast addon car downloading with just a .txt file (overwriting the eagle). Although it may run, there will obviously be no accurate model for the person who downloaded the new addon .txt. There may be problems with collision where a large car shown on one side and a small car shown on the other never actaully make contact with any target cars (because of the differences in size of the eagle and the addon). If any kind of car downloading should be implemented i think we would simply have to download the complete car.

Also, there is no final release date yet. This is because current discussions over the mod were to include it with an update to C2Adv by Rax. However, i do not know how he wishes to continue with that now. I explained that if he didn't want to progress or the online mode was significantly more complete than the update, then it may be the case that my mod would be released seperately. I obviously do not want to make an decisions behind is back yet, until i know what's happening his end. Either way though, my mod won't be heavily integrated and so it wouldn't take much for someone to rip the C2O files out and use them in a new install of C2 (wihout C2Adv).

There may be a public release of a limited BETA to show off how the mod will work, judging by my progress so far i could probably estimate a couple of months time.

James.

[C2 Scientist]

I think a quite big problem with addon cars would be that the modelers usually crank up the mass, top speed, acceleration and strength, which certainly would make things unbalanced. (plus the dreaded 'editing car strengths') If addon cars were to be used, the guy running a server (for example) would have to have carefully edited textfiles for all addon cars available on the server, to make sure no car has unrealistically high stats compared to other cars. Or, make each client use the same textfile (automatically downloaded from the server?), when everyone is forced to drive the same addon car in the race... this way everyone would have same chances. Something like this anyway, I suppose.

More later... need to hurry now.

[Wolverine]

Yes i think you have brought up two good points there. 1. Cheating and 2. Class

Cheating will always be something that will continually need to be dealt with, even standard cars could be cheated to include higher strength or faster acceleration. There probably needs to be some kind of protection here. Downloading .txt files containing the correct strength and speed from the server would deffinately be a good idea, forcing cheaters or even just genuine modders to use fair settings.

By having classes (of strength and speed) it could be made so that the server sets a class such as A (best) and so a limited selection of cars based on their properties are available. This along with limiting the car types available based on what everyone has installed, would in theory cover all bases i think. I don't think it would be very satisfactory to make everyone select the very same car, although this might be a useful option (server set car for example). Without some sort of class regulation you can end up with very unfair games, such as Suppressor VS Spectre in TDR2000 LOL!!!

Then again, having this freedom might need to be left open as an option. Some expert players may want to choose a weak car and show off, against others with a higher class. Perhaps you guys can give me your views on these ideas.

James.

[C2 Scientist]

The concept of classes sounds good, I think.

I have a new game mode in mind: "Lights, camera, action" C2O (over Internet) would allow something that has been quite difficult earlier: making advanced car chase movies from the replay clips. So far the only options have been:

1. Escaping the dumb AI in single player

2. Or maybe inviting some friends to a LAN-game, and somehow getting a decent car for one and a copcar for others... well, if the instant replay even works in multiplayer. Too much effort needed anyway.

Imagine: the chased with a fast car (the best driver of the group maybe?), and 1-3 cops/others... all skilled human drivers in multiplayer instead of dumb AI. (And maybe throw in several additional players as civilian drivers... which would require more than max 4 clients) If we forget the movie recording, the game mode would just be called e.g. 'hot pursuit' or something... although I believe there's a multiplayer mode a bit similar to this already?

Anyway, this definitely could result in nice chase movies when people gathered together for shooting them... but the instant replay would need to be enabled, at least when the chase is considered to have ended. And maybe some thinking of how to record the action, how to record from different camera angles, and from other players' views... and possibly make the game record and save all the player paths for later re-capturing, although I'm not sure if this is possible at all, since there currently is no such option in the game. (obviously Fraps or a similar program would be used for the video capturing instead of the built-in recorder of low image quality...)

But this isn't that important yet, first things first of course... just 'brainstorming' for now...

[TTR]

First of, Duh i know its standard network rules gheez, but some...or one or 2 games react with that ID and since carmageddon has an ID system it could maybe see the eagle on one computer whilst the other player on his computer sees an addon car he placed on the eagles ID.

Second, i didnt read it all but what about a car d/l function as like in quake games with the maps someone doesnt got (or mods)

[blacksunshine]

"(automatically downloaded from the server?)" he was onto something about the addon cars.

class and weight seems like a good idea. but if its more work and a pain in the ass, leave it.

let someone sweat it out against a big M.F.er! and cheating. well i do it. i kill that damn timer in C2,

when i play the game. people will prob. do it online. so, let me stop will the blah, blah,blah, so you

can get back to work. keep it up the great work. we all are root'in for ya!!!

b.s.

[lentilky]

just my opinion to work against cheater/modder:

Use a checksum-check for the available cars

and if one clients checksum is bad, he cant choose that car.

Thats easier than downloading files and reduces the traffic,

which is never bad

p.s.:

Is there any working download link for C2ADV,

i didnt found one with the help of google.

[NitroX]

Sorry guys, I been away for the last bit. I'll be back later to add some content .. About the cheating issue, why get so complex, just avoid people who cheat. You'd be suprised, it works great.

Kilroy out.

[Wolverine]

That chase mode sounds pretty cool to me Also, the replay function does work in multiplayer just like it would otherwise. Actually, EVERYTHING works just like it does in single player. The only things on the surface which will require some modifying is the timer (which needs syncing with clients) and any text output like "you wasted em" which needs translating to the clients, with the name of the guy who got wasted. There's probably some other things that will show themselves too eventually, but those two are the obvious ones. The other translation is to do with powerups, for example the opponent repulsifier. I don't currently have any estimation as to how this will turn out as yet, i am hoping that i will be able to show the "spring effect" on all clients and the server.

One way of getting around this might be as follows:

-Server initiates repulsificator on client1

-Server see's repulsificator effect

-client1 loses the ability to send their own coordinates, rather the server forces client1 to position their car where clients1 is located on the servers screen (i.e. they bounce away!)

-client1 initiates opponent repulsificator straight away (to see an effect). This effect is not transferred to the target (in terms of coordinates) as the victims coordinates will now get updated yet again.

In theory that may work, but in practice we will have to see

Also, TTR is very right about the ID's. This is also true for the memory locations in C2 i have currently found that determine what car is selected. For example, your game might allocate the number x to eagle. However if you add or remove a car from the game, this number will change. So yes, there will have to be a more efficient way of managing cars in the game. I'm sure there will be a way, when i arrive at this part of the development. As you can see there will still be issues to overcome really, even without addons. So it probably won't take too much more time to add the additional support, maybe there should be a poll to see how many would prefer addons or standard cars too

Also, C2Adv can be downloaded from http://tdr2k.gamingsource.net/c2adv/ just click download and choose the official host (which is my site).

James.

[blacksunshine]

HOLY SHIT!!! i cant believe my eyes! dude when i seen the page on the info, i jizzed in my pants!

outstanding work, my friend! i like the selection of cars and tracks... need to get the interceptor

from mad max in there, the car that started it all. this thing with the online is gonna be huge!!!

this mod of online, is gonna beathe new life into the game. not only that,the fans who "did" play the

game, has a new out look on it. so, once again, keep up the good work, and pat yourself on the back.

(and same for the people who are helpin' out.)

gone bonkers,

B.S.



:

[NitroX]

Well, C2 is an older game, the only people who we can really attract is people around this community, and maybe a few people with links to the community. I agree it will probably breath new life into the game, and perhaps we might get some clans started, but, I think you are looking to optimisticly, You might be waiting awhile before this is finished, programming things, without any syntax errors, can take a while .. and its very frustrating. Most people don't realize that the programmer probably has the most difficult job, He organizes everything together, And, I respect that. That's just my say though.

Kilroy out.

[TTR]

It can go huge, ofcourse as you said when its finished to a pretty good stage as (echum) MTA...wolverine is paying for gamespy right? i know about copyrights and such, but...the carma community is pretty big, we could maybe send an email to SCI and ask for ourselfs (as this is an anbandon game already not?) to let us make it an official gamespy plugin with a logo and all...dunno if that can be happen i mean SCI would probably sell more C2's then, no? if ppl see it online and on gamespy

And hell yeah to addon cars! im dead bored of the originals...but i like to see all the cars which you can have addon or original in the online function hummm...

[Wolverine]

Thanks for the continual praise guys The whole copyright thing may be the killer, i haven't actually looked into it much yet but of course i would before any kind of release was set. I would have liked to have created some kind of e-mail or even a page with everyones "please please supports us" comments/e-mail addresses and see if we can't get some decent response of authority from someone. I can't see them complaining about a piece of software which is pretty much independant, and would not be integrated or cause a modified version of the game to be re-released. If it sells more of their old game then surely that's a good thing! To me it sounds like nothing more than putting a new track or a few new cars into the game and giving it a bit more functionality. I'm not "up on" the legal aspects of all this though, and it's wrong of me to assume too much. I still think the community letter or page would be a good idea for a start though.

If this sounds like a good idea maybe i can make a quick page with submission form for everyone to add their views, or perhaps we could just start a poll here and send them that! Afterall, this forum is the biggest one on the net for Carmageddon isn't it?

James.

[TTR]

If this sounds like a good idea maybe i can make a quick page with submission form for everyone to add their views, or perhaps we could just start a poll here and send them that! Afterall, this forum is the biggest one on the net for Carmageddon isn't it?

Both i will sign thats for sure

[lentilky]

I would just say in the begining concentrate

on the main things, like stability and performance.

If it lags like hell i wont make much fun...

@[M[]M]Wolverine:

thanks for the link to C2ADV,

now its 2005 and its time to try that

[NitroX]

Hmm .. Well, for sure I can make a poll for you, on c2online @ netfirms .. It's an easy HTML script to create .. I can put on a link for it on the next update. I don't think we need to redo the image map .. should work, the link will be something like http://c2online.netfirms.com/poll.htm .. though, I think we need a cjb.net redirect .. I'll get the results emailed to me, and I can forward them to anyone who wants them .. sound good?

[Lumberjack]

Wolverine, firstly that C2O logo you have in your sig is pure class, nice one. Ok I missed this topic so there's a lot to read. I'm just going to jot down a few of my comments etc. The idea of having 'classes' of car (speed, strength etc) is an excellent one, what occurred to me as a good idea would be to normalise the data from the car txt file. Say the server chooses class B, which has a speed value of say 40 (just a random number for this discussion). A player joining the game may have modified his car's physics to drive how he likes the car to drive, so his values are different from the standard values for that car. It might be a good idea to level all his values to the baseline of 40, so that the car has a similar strength and speed etc to the other players' cars, but it still drives like he has customized it to. I hope I explained that clearly.

It could also be an option for the server to be able to set 'any class' to allow some players to use weaker cars as you said, but the values could still be normalised based on the class a player chooses (server chooses class B, player chooses class A, player gets values adjusted to a baseline 10 higher than server).

The timer would only be necessary if the server sets a time limit for that game (deathmatch say would not need a timer). As for translating 'you wasted Name', that would be excellent to be able to see that somewhere. What will you do about those instances where say player 1 crashes into player 2, causes some damage and then player 2 drives into a wall and dies? In C2 it gives you the points for the kill, right? Perhaps points for the percentage of their total health should be given.

As for support from SCi to make it official, well I don't think that is really necessary but certainly find out about the copyright issue, although I think you are right in suggesting that it should not be a problem.

Great job on doing this so far, we've really been waiting for someone who has these skills for a long time I guess. Let us know when you need some beta testers to play with (no need to drive on two computers).

EDIT: before I forget, remember to let at least one person in the community have a backup of your efforts.

[C2 Scientist]

There's a small problem with allowing the 'customizing' for preferred handling: (if I understood the idea correctly) Even having different "centre of mass"-values can give some advantage if tweaked right: the player's car would always get back on its wheels, and never stay upside-down, for example. (and no waiting for the recovery would then be needed) And tweaking the friction angles of the wheels could give considerably more grip.

At least the suspension settings should be safe from cheating, though...

[Wolverine]

Thanks Nitro, that would be perfect

Some great points coming up here, the normalizing sounds like a spot on idea... at least this way people can play fair but still tweak their cars in other ways. As for the detection of what killed someone, it probably won't be too bad. So long as there is regular checks for who was the last person in contact with the dying player with fast intervals (perhaps with a distance check), then if they happened to drive into a wall after, this interval will have already changed (thus no players are in contact) and the wall would be at fault. I guess a lot of these things will be trial and error in the end, until its right. If i haven't already learnt by now, when it comes to hacking games nothing is that straight forward though!

Beta testers i will deffinately need!

There is one thing i'd like to ask though, as this has been bugging me at the moment. Is there such a cheat or option in the game to turn off the opponent AI? I know you can tweak the nastiness level but even at the lowest it's obvious not "off". I'll probably find a hack in the game to do it, but in case there was already an easy route i thought i might ask

At the moment when the a car hits something the AI kicks in and the reversing lights go nuts LOL. I think this may also be causing some slight jittering with the car when it moves, because the AI is trying to take over control. I will find a way to nuke that AI soon!!!

Thanks,

James.

[TTR]

Ssstt!! you're giving the cheaters idea's! hehehe